And so it begins . . . .
The New York Times reports today that
In Republican-held state governments across the country, officials have collectively turned toward embracing Trump’s denials of the election result. Ten Republican attorneys general filed an amicus brief urging the Supreme Court to hear a dispute over the Pennsylvania Supreme Court’s ruling allowing mail-in ballots to be received up to three days after Election Day.
While most American citizens (and others) would assume that they actually do want the Supreme Court hear the dispute (since, after all, that is what their brief is calling for), they realize that the reality is that the Supreme Court refusing to hear the dispute leads to a much more probable path to a Trump victory. If the Supreme Court refuses, that gives Republican-majority state legislatures in Biden-called states the opportunity to claim that they have no option to challenge a (claimed) fraudulent and illegal election other than by replacing the Biden electors with Trump electors.
The worst news is that, under the constitution, this is 100% legal. It is, undoubtedly, entirely faithless and lacking in integrity -- but the Senate's actions in Supreme Court justice ratification and the impeachment trial clearly demonstrate how far Republicans are willing to go to get "their way". This is, of course, entirely opposed to following all precedent and norms, allowing democracy to operate correctly, paying attention to all constituents (not just the minority) and just having the integrity to apply the same rules to themselves that they impose on others.
I find it particularly telling when people I talk to, who insist that this should be done, refuse to say whether they believe that the current results are incorrect -- particularly for the number of states required (three) to reverse the results of the election. They insist that there was fraud -- but they won't commit to whether it made any difference even if it were true. While I can agree with people holding different political views, I find this utter lack of integrity and total disrespect for democracy disgusting and sickening.
As I said in my previous article, America's Worst Case Scenario
Personally, I can't imagine California, the entirety of New England and a number of other states accepting this. The Republicans have already won two presidential contests (Bush vs. Gore and Trump vs. Clinton) in this century despite losing the majority of the vote. The Senate, where Republicans represent FAR fewer people than the Democrats, have had a majority that have made a mockery of both the impeachment and Supreme Court confirmation processes. There are substantial majorities of US citizens who support access to abortion, identical treatment for sexual minorities, less punishment for (if not outright legalization of) street drugs and a number of other issues who are ignored in favor of the opinions of a strident minority.
Legally, their only option is secession from the United States. I don't see a civil war happening because there is just no way in which the red states can beat the blue states (assuming that they even want to) and there will be enough people in the blue states who feel that they will be better off without the red states. The sad thing is . . . I really do wonder if this might not be the best thing for the United States . . . .
On the other hand, I now wonder about what would happen if/when the Republican-majority legislature of, say, Pennsylvania doesn't even allow their citizens to vote on secession (though THAT may be handled in the next election -- if elections are even a thing in Trump's US and assuming that there isn't a massive outflow of people to seceding states and influx of people determined to keep Pennsylvania in Trump's US).
The New York Times said that Trump's enduring legacy will be climate damage. Just think how proud he would be to have the legacy of freeing the people of the GREAT RED STATES of America from the interference of the SOCIALIST BLUE STATES. It will be THE GREATEST ACHIEVEMENT IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND and it happened in just the fourth year of his ten years in office before his untimely death led Mike Pence to firmly establish the Christian States of America.
What a nightmare. I just wonder whether purple Virginia will secede or whether I'll be forced to uproot and move to the Democratic States of America.
Although I disagree with most of what you've said above I've upvoted you 100% will will defend to the death your right to say it.
I wish people who support Trump could expect the same from your side of politics and its media and Big Tech allies.
-Humor-
I'm sure there is a nice planet in eXode waiting for you. :-)
@elindos will be finished coding just in time for you to move there when Trump is sworn in.
Just as you aren't responsible for Trump or the Senate's actions, I can't be held responsible for any politician or (fickle) "ally" that you don't like (nor should entire groups be smeared by the actions of a small number of individuals UNLESS they hold high positions in that group). I can only be held responsible for the consistency of my beliefs and my actions.
I feel VERY free to slam the Senate when the rules change based upon circumstance but you can't do anything about that -- unless you express your approval (which I feel is an endorsement for lacking integrity and I will criticize you for). I feel VERY free to slam Trump when he constantly, if nothing else, makes claims that are highly improbable at best -- but don't criticize you unless you criticize Biden for doing with far greater justification what Trump has done far more egregiously without mentioning that fact -- that is a rhetorical game, not honest debate.
I feel free to point out inconsistencies and lack of INTERNAL integrity of the arguments and actions of others -- and expect that others should hold me accountable in exactly the same way. This is why I criticize people who show every sign of believing that the vote results were indicative of the will of a state -- yet call for it to be overturned regardless of this fact. The fact that something CAN be done does not mean that it should be supported just because it fits your immediate desires. I will repeat that I find such shenanigans and lack of integrity between belief and action despicable, reprehensible, disgusting and sickening (and note that you continue to avoid denying that this is exactly what you are doing).
Again, that has zero to do with your political views except their consistency and the integrity of your actions (counting discourse as an action) with what you believe to be the truth (that eliminating the fraud would not flip the results).
You have said you genuinely wanted to understand the other side.
You talk a lot about integrity and morality, but it not clear what moral code you are referring to - there are many.
The US Founding Fathers were religious Christians and founded the United States on Judeo-Christian morality.
Religiously observant Christians and Jews, who practice Judeo-Christian morality, voted overwhelmingly for Trump (Orthodox Jews by 80%).
They did this because the Democratic party has become strongly influenced by its extreme left elements including Antifa, BLM and The Squad who are constantly attacking traditional Judeo-Christian morals and practices.
The massive erosion of traditional Judeo-Christian values and practices by "progressive" values and practices over the past 60 years is extremely concerning to them and Obama and Biden have openly supported more and more attacks.
So when you use these words like morality, integrity, established norms and wishes of the Founders, you are assigning meanings to these words that are NOT what Trump voters mean by them.
You are entitled to your own morality and values but the "progressive" morality and values that you espouse are NOT the values and morality on which the USA was founded, nor those of most Trump supporters.
If you want to understand the other side start with the basic understanding that their morals and values may be fundamentally different from yours.
@ironshield @bearbear613 @smithlabs may wish to comment on this.
In the situation that this country faces at this moment, the one thing we ALL should be looking for is intellectual honesty.
When allegations of Russian Collusion were made, there were almost FOUR YEARS of investigation and after the investigation didn't find anything of substance, and Trump was acquitted, many did NOT have the intellectual honesty to admit there was nothing there and continued believing Trump was "in the pocket of Putin".
Now allegations are made of massive voter fraud, it's been ONE WEEK of investigation so far and already incredible amounts of evidence is showing up, enough to recognize what actually happened. Yet many do NOT have the intellectual honesty to even allow the suggestion that a massive crime has occurred across multiple states and they believe that the results of the election are in.
Intellectual honesty is supposed to be the one value that all Americans have in common, no matter what their political affiliation is.
no reason to comment you said everything I would have said
The meaning of the word "INTEGRITY" is clear. Trying to overturn an election where you believe that the results were correct lacks all integrity.
If Trump voters don't recognize that as integrity . . . .
Does YOUR morality agree with Trump's treatment of immigrants on the Southern border? I'm not asking if he can legally get away with it. Do YOU feel that separating children from parents, performing hysterectomies on unsuspecting women, etc. is EVER justified.
Your entire argument is strawmen.
If the meaning of the word "integrity" becomes "holding true to your beliefs", then "integrity" becomes subjective and has no relation to the external truth anymore. At that point, the very word "integrity" looses it's integrity.
Yes, according to "their truth" Biden won the election. But what if there is evidence that they are wrong? Does their belief make them correct?
If there was no evidence of fraud, then intellectual honesty on both sides would cause them both to accept the outcome, like in 2008 and in 2012. As it stands, claiming and celebrating a victory, while 47 electoral votes are still undetermined, lacks integrity and it is nothing more than play-acting with no substance behind it.
If the tables were turned, do you think the left would be OK with Trump shooting off fireworks in a contested election?
Who said I believed the results are correct? There are no certified results.
I believe Trump won the majority of legal votes in all disputed States.
Talk about straw man arguments. You put words in my mouth. Is this integrity?
It probably wouldn't be a bad thing if the US broke up into smaller countries. The federal government was never meant to have as much power as it has. I think an EU/shengen type situation would probably be better than whats going on now. though neither are ideal.
I agree that it probably would be a good thing in the long run if it were done in a controlled manner that looked out for everyone affected. If it happens in the uncontrolled fashion that this election might bring, many people are going to be devastated.
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