Dear @evanprice,
Question:
If a person just learned to play chess, why would he or she not defeat a Grandmaster Chess Player?
Answer:
The first few moves in the chess opening lays the foundation for every chess game. Since the Grandmaster is much more knowledgeable and experienced playing the game, the Grandmaster knows how to counter the beginners first few moves and is able to plan more moves in advance.
The beginner has free will. He or she can make any opening move he or she desires. In fact the beginner has the choice to make any legal move for the entirety of the game.
The fact that the Grandmaster wins doesn't negate the opponents ability to choose. But even the Grandmaster has to play by the rules.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
God, like the chess master, knows in advance the possibilities of the choice a man or woman might make. He is sovereign and His plans and purposes will be fulfilled.
BUT since it is His will that no one will perish, then why isn't everyone saved?
Because people have the "free will" to accept the gracious gift of salvation or to reject Christ as Lord and Savior.
You see, that even God has to play by the rules. Since mankind was given "free will," God will not override the choice a person makes.
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Ezekiel 33:11a
Why did God again and again send His prophets to His people to plead with them to turn from their idolatry, immorality, and carnality?
Because they had free will and it had to be their decision to repent and receive God's blessings.
Shalom, Steven Sherman @last days
Free will is the ability to choose an outcome.. If someone or some thing knows the outcome, even if it's unbeknownst to the participant.. That is still not free will. As far as your chess metaphor goes.. I've seen many a grandmaster be beaten by a newbie.. know why? Because of luck and human nature. We are flawed. The grandmaster often underestimates the newbie and that can often lead to them making decisions without thinking things completely through. They look at the newbie as "inexperienced" and often don't fully think about the moves they make. Also, newbies tend to accidentally make game-ending moves against masters.. Here is a simple video to show you a grandmaster being beaten, horribly, by a newbie.
Also, you do not have a choice to "accept" or "reject" the lord. You are designed to either have faith and be a believer, or not. It is all by design, there is no manipulating what is already determined by "god." As much as people like to try to disprove me.. Your words simply have proven my point.. "God" knows that you will either be faithful or unfaithful, before you do it, does not change the fact that "God" knows, beforehand, what the outcome will be. That negates free will, altogether.
Yes, I agree. Grandmasters can be beaten even by newbies because they are fallible human beings. Just because God knows the end from the beginning doesn't mean that he destines people to hell.
I would appreciate it, if you would please take the time to answer my two questions.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
Q1 - Is it true that the Lord does not want anyone to perish or is God a liar?
Jesus is the Amen, the faithful and true witness. The Lord is the way, the truth and the life.
Q2 -So kindly explain, if the Lord desires that everyone come to repentance, and people do not have a choice (no free will) how can they resist His desire?
Thank you for this stimulating discussion.
Blessings, Steven
Q1: Have you personally met God? Face to face? No. No one has. All you can say is that you have this "feeling" that God is there. You have no real proof he even exists.. So as to whether god is a liar or wants everyone to perish.. That's something you'd have to personally ask him.. except you can't, you can make up your own response and claim it was him.. but until he shows up, undoubtedly.. All you, personally, have.. is faith which is nothing more than a belief and is not factual in any form.
Q2: Why would a "great God" need to ask you for anything? That whole situation in-and-of-itself is a paradox. An all powerful, all seeing, all knowing being... has to ask for you to repent? Doesn't sound very powerful to me. Plus, why even make it so that people need to be forgiven in the first place? You could have made the world perfectly, but chose not to.. That, is no "great" God to me.. What he essentially made, was programs, set on a certain path.. doing as he intended and created them to do.. He clearly didn't want everyone to believe in him and have faith, or he would have made us all creatures of faith..
Answer me this:
Why did a "great" God create child rape?
Murder?
Theft?
Slavery?
Sound like a "great" God to you? You worship something that had infinite power.. yet decided to create such shitty things..
If you want to use the "he didn't create that, man defying him and creating sin made that!" or the ever-so-popular "that wasn't God's work, that was the work of the Devil!" Ok, well God created the devil and everything that the Devil and humans would ever do, therefore, by transition, he created sin, rape, murder, theft.. all of it. It was his creation, not ours. Sin did not exist before God created it. That is no great God to me... Not at all...
I must, seriously, thank you for your conversation too. The fact that you haven't gotten angry or verbally assaulted me, shows a lot about your character. It is nice to see the better side of religion. Those who are willing to debate about it and not take it personally! After all, we all believe different things! I am in no way an atheist! I am agnostic. I would like to believe a wonderful, all-powerful, good force exists in this world.. That wants our love and to give us infinite love.. but, unfortunately, books written by man and no real physical evidence, whatsoever.. makes it very very hard for me to believe in something so outlandish..
However, being that I'm not a closed-minded person, I accept that just because I can't prove he exists, does not mean that he doesn't. As I also have no proof, whatsoever, that he does not exist, either!
This is how I choose to live my life, with that being said.
I do what I know is, internally, morally and ethically right.
I seek the good in people and the best in myself and try to find ways to improve who I am as a person.
I believe that IF a great God exists, and I say "if" because I do not know and I was not created to just believe in things I have no real proof of, that he created me this way. He created me to never have faith in things I see no evidence of. He created me to not just accept what people say as truth. He created me to behave how I behave, good or bad, and for him to condemn me for acting how I was created to act.. would be absolutely ridiculous.
So.. I live my life the best I can and I try to help my brothers and sisters on this planet in as many ways as I can. I do what is right by my heart and my head, and IF God created me.. I will only ever be acting as he made me to be, so I do not believe that he would hold anything against me for living my life how I believed was right and true to myself.
Hope that made you think a little bit! :) And again, thank you for your patience in debating these topics! It means a lot to at least know that you're open minded enough to debate the things you believe! That is more than I can say for many others, and to me, that makes you a good.. Christian? lol.. Not sure what type of God you believe in or what version of whatever bible/etc.. but I do know that, usually, with religion, there is a lot of ignorance and hatred from those claiming to be "righteous" and to not have received a hint of that from you, shows me that you have good character! I can always appreciate a good person. :)
Dear @evanprice,
I am glad we can have a civil discussion and not resort to ad hominem arguments. (An ad hominem argument is one that relies on personal attacks rather than reason or substance).
I would like to address one issue at a time. I agree that at times a so-called Christian will have a "religious spirit." That kind of person usually is prideful and judgmental of others. He or she thinks morality is based on their standards and outward appearances.
Jesus rebuked the religious leaders of his day for hypocrisy. In the Book of Matthew chapter 23, He first warns against hypocrisy. Then He rebukes the teachers of the law and the Pharisees seven times starting each time by saying “Woe to you ( Meaning; How terrible it will be for you), teachers of the law and Pharisees."
Here is one example:
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Matthew 23:23-24
In other words, those self-righteous people who walk around haughtily trying to impress other people with their show of good deeds; but who inwardly are self-centered and neglect the more important principles of the faith may call themselves Christians but are not following Jesus.
True Christianity is considering the needs of others above your own. It is sacrificial love and all the laws and commandments are fulfilled by loving God and loving your neighbor.
I will get to some of your other points over the next few days.
Shalom, Steven Sherman