You probably heard about it yesterday when it happened. You felt it happen when your portfolio hit red again.
When it comes to the deal with CZ I see that as a positive thing for the wider space.
I know most of crypto is centralized crap but we can now finally start moving towards decentralization that so many in crypto pretend to uphold.
I know it was the US government basically enforcing decentralization in this case but sometimes even they can do good on accident.
CEXes have always had too much power, they were starting to act basically like crypto banks all the while not playing by any rules.
They control the markets, they control user funds, they manipulate prices, fake volume, fake basically everything.
If you could find Justin Sun on the super market shelf with dairy products he would be margarine.
It was a foregone conclusion that this would happen to Binance.
THE HIVE PROBLEM:
While in theory I support most of the bad that happens to CEXes, this puts Hive in a very uncertain position. If Binance fails and becomes insolvent, if it has to shut down like Bittrex yesterday, we would be left without a major exchange listing and our top trading pairs by volume.
If CEXes are going the way of the Dodo and DEXes are the future, Hive would be left stranded on an Island completely disconnected from the rest of the crypto markets.
- We have no bridges to other chains that are used in any capacity
- No liquidity pools
- And no one working on creating them (EDIT: VSC that has so far been funded by the @threespeak team is apparently building a functioning bridge that solves most issues listed here. MORE INFO SOON.)
Our overreliance on Cexes is palpable and terrible, especially considering we like to pride ourselves in promoting decentralization of finance and the web.
This is unfortunately for us an entirely a "devs do something!" type of problem.
The responses to this I got when I brought it up elsewhere were:
- We cant do anything.
- There is no solution.
- Nothing will work.
- You cant have bridges. Theyre a liability. (CEXes apparently arent a liability)
- Yeah, we ded if CEXes fail.
- They probably wont fail.
- Lets pray they dont fail.
So yeah thats where we are now.
Not enough panic yet to move anyone to action.
Not enough will to be proactive and try different solutions.
Wer just pushed around in the water on our little Hive floatie.
.
.
.
Maybe the current pushes us to the shore and wer safe.
.
.
.
Maybe a wave flips us over and we drown. Who can say? 🤷♂
Whats important to remember is that we can do "NOTHING" about it. Nothing at all.
(Well.. at least thats what I hear)
Hive can also work without an exchange.
A P2P solution similar to Bisq is possible.
Everything is already there and Hive can also multisignature (Multisig). We just need a development team that can build such a tool.
Im up for anything.
Thank you for your witness vote!
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BEER.what are the top DEX?
We can write a DHF proposal and get listed there.
Thorchain (https://thorchain.org/) is one of them but i assume a decent work would be reuired to upgrade nodes/decentralized custody on hive side, and then getting them help us integerate.
As hive might not bring them a lot of volume, so our case for them could be week, but if DAO provides intial liquity and promotion etc. they may take it.
Thorswap is one of app on thorchain: https://app.thorswap.finance/swap
That's why we are building @vsc.network to not only help solve the custody problem but also bring smart contracts to HIVE that allows any chain to easily integrate with HIVE via a smart contract. We can already do cross chain swaps using HTLC, with full Bitcoin to HIVE wrapping under heavy development. It's only a matter of time.
Seems like its much more complex than we think at first glance. There is a trust and liability issue when it comes to pool fund control and accumulation from what ive seen devs talk about.
Nothing that cant be solved but it would take a mind more familiar with the tech than mine to solve it.
Uniswap on ETH is always popular, now Thorchain is making waves as well with simplified pooling without wraps.
We on @threespeak have been working on this for the last 6 months. We will do out first test in a week from now.
its a decentralised bitcoin bridge. it was built exactly for the reasons you are worried about in this blog
As i thought .... something can be done after all.
Yep, and this project starkerz speaks of is the same we've been working on for @vsc.network. It's very close to a usable demo.
I thought that was just smart contracts. Good to know.
Nope, the very first thing we have done with smart contracts is cross chain wrapping. 😀
Even more to come.
What about liquidity?
At the very least we will have a liquidity pool to help incentivize liquidity providers. We will start off with that, and go from there. At the moment the goal is to just get it working and slowly ramp up as it gets more popular.
A most interesting conundrum here. I have to wonder if the case for Centralization/Decentralization isn't being taken a bit to far? Human nature is such that some measure of 'central' authority will always be necessary however there can be no argument that our history shows us that we always manage to take that to far.
In the comments between @lordbutterfly and @ura-soul a discussion about PeerVerity came up. The article @ura-soul referenced (and wrote) on this topic led me to think that a great many of the complexities arising out of the particular issue of this article from @lordbutterfly can be solved with an easily code-able ethical principle. If we accept the principle that 'code is law' and we encode the Categorical Imperative into the most base layer of any systems governance, in a manner that cannot be circumvented, then I believe that it will be a relatively simple matter to rectify many of the complexity challenges facing functions such as PeerVerity.
Unfortunately, as so many of the comments and replies in just this thread show, there is a lot more ground that needs to be covered than this platform (Hive) really allows for. Real time discussion and interaction/debate is needed. The real beauty of systems such as Hive, for me, is the potential to spark thoughts and ideas and allow those to manifest into actions that lead to positive change. Yes we are facing some real challenges however one of my favorite pasttimes is when someone says, "you can't do that!". To which my own nature will always respond, "Oh! The hell I can't!....Watch Me!"
Smart contracts are amazingly powerful tools and (maybe I'm dumb as a stump here) I believe Hive was built out of the Ethereum Blockchain (the Original home of smart contracts) so it seems to me that building 'bridges' for exchanging, swapping and liquidity purposes can't really be all that difficult. Where 'trust' is an issue simply invoking the Categorical Imperative in the base code solves that problem. Getting the 'old school' players to get on board with the new paradigm, well that's their problem, our numbers are growing and they (the old school) will just have to muddle through as best they can.
Great Article @lordbutterfly and thanks also to @ura-soul for the article on PeerVerity!
Blessed Be.
It's all solvable, yes - ultimately the financial factors drives many things here - so if investors realise they need to develop and integrate new tools in order to not lose out, then they will.
NB. Hive wasn't born from Ethereum, they are completely different chains and technologies. Hive is a fork of Steem, which itself was a new blockchain based on Graphene technology that is also used by BitShares and EOS.
I knew about the fork from Steem but thought I had heard it started from Ethereum. Like I said, might be dumb as a stump.
This post obviously struck a nerve. It's a blessing that we have VSC and blocktrades working on SCs currently. That should be a start. Also, Chainge would be willing to integrate once Hive has EVM compatibility
Chainage would definitely want to integrate when VSC is ready.
Its something we need to start thinking about and turning towards. Obviously CEXes dont work for us, Coinbase will never list hive and being decentralized is obviously a problem.
yep, Hive has chosen this daring path. And I am excited that we have done so. We are one of the few projects that is actually following through with the original vision for crypto. Together we are strong 💪
There are the wrapped versions, I guess that's something, but low liquidity.
I'd love to see a pairing with RUNE.
Someone that knows more about the tech should probably answer that. Unfortunately im not the guy for it. :)
This is very sad news. Binance is currently a very popular and huge platform. But hopefully nothing bad will happen with such a big platform. Also good luck with Hive. But Hive's bridge with any other chain would be great.
Hive has always been available on Bitshares, the DEX that started it all and that runs on the same tech as Hive. Volume isn't huge but it's something:
https://bts.exchange/#/market/XBTSX.HIVE_BTS
I think this is not just a manner of Hive being available on DEXes, its about how we provide liquidity in a sufficient manner as well. MM too.
I meant to write DEX above, not CEX. lol
Yes, for sure - there are other smaller CEXs that support Hive and that seem to have useable liquidity, but I agree, this is and has always (outside of Binance) been a problem.
IIRC I have heard that the situation with listings on CEXs is hampered in that Hive is actually decentralised - however, that doesn't seem to have been a problem for Bitcoin..
We should start here by making a public list of the target CEXs and DEXs that we want Hive to be listed on and then work out a strategy. Maybe that list already exists publicly @crimsonclad?
Market making is a problem and the fact that all of crypto is basically a centralized clown show.
Cant get listed because youre actually decentralized is peak absurdity ready for a Monty Python skit.
Then again, more CEXes just means more risk. If the big guys fall, the small ones will follow. If the shift is towards DEX we should be looking there.
Yes, I recall Crimson Clad saying something about how the CEXs want to contract with an entity and get paid in order to have a listing, but clearly that makes zero sense outside of the CEXs having very little to do with actual decentralisation in any way whatsoever.
If anything comes out of all of this it needs to be the masses realising that what they have seen of crypto so far is mostly actually just centralised and wealthy groups of people trying to exploit them and calling it decentralisation, rather than actual decentralisation... However, as we know well on Hive, this doesn't seem probable any time soon.
It may be that full decentralisation, where each user runs a node on their own device (as @blocktrades plans for PeerVerity), is one of the steps needed to jolt people into the necessary understanding.
PeerVerity? I havent heard about that. Got a link for anything related to it?
Sure, I wrote a blog about it here.
I've always wondered if we couldn't do a development fund vote to pay whatever the fee is to get listed with Coinbase? Or are they problematic in ways I don't know about (I'm not techie at all, I'm afraid)?
AFAIK the problem is more that they won't start the process without a legal entity to contract with.
This is what we do not want Hive to continue stranded, unlike the huvers to grow in value as before, when it was equivalent to the dollar, at least in Cumaná, we have more than 60 businesses where we can buy merchandise and obtain services, with our hiver thanks to the HiveSucre community, directly, which can very well be achieved little by little worldwide. Success in your publication.
I pray they don't fail because this will be a big blow to Hivers. I am pretty optimistic something will come up soonest
There is no big liquidity on other exchanges because Binance keeps a big part of it at the moment. Once or if it shuts down, liquidity will be moved to other exchanges. Binance was one of my top used ones but as they are closing their crypto prepaid Visa card without providing any alternative, I would gladly move somewhere else. Competition driving the game here...
Yeah, I use their Visa as well. Ill be moving to Crypto.com soon. Good thing you reminded me to set that up.
Which crypto.com level are you going for, if not a secret?
I've been hesitating since the day I received the email announcing the termination.
I hear CRO lost its reputation already, and prices dropped, accordingly, so staking/locking few hundred (or thousands if going for a better cashback) EUR doesn't sound good. Also, they have 1% topping fee.
Too bad Bittrex are shitting down as their EUR withdrawal was quick and absolutely free.
Phew, so much drama lately, lmao...
Ill go lowest. I just need something that allows me to make payments without me having to use my bank for it. I use crypto for every day life
I am considering the same option too. Probably we have to push towards HIVE being accepted on Crypto.com
I suspect, though, that crypto.com Visa card with have the same destiny, it's a matter of time. Hopefully I am wrong about that.
It all depends on how they deal with regulation. But that is something we have no way to know about.
Why are bridges bad? Surely someone will see this as an opportunity, and create something... I don't have the dev knowledge, unfortunately.
This post has been manually curated by the VYB curation project
They are a liability and there is a trust issue when it comes to controlling the funds.
Which is true.. but at the same time we have cexes that are a liability and most dont have problems trusting them at least to a degree.
At least Wanchain do bridges correctly. No liability involved, we have to reach out to them. Eventually it will happen iv no doubt anyway they will connect everything.
Wanchain looks like HTLC based swaps. We've already built support for this natively in @vsc.network. With some more work VSC can do exactly what Wanchain does but directly with other cryptocurrency pairs natively supporting HTLCs. No bridging to wanchain required and adding extra complexity.
sounds good. But surely if you just bridge to Wan that opens the doors to everything else. One bridge less work? all good tho.
I'd have to do more research on that and find out exact technical complexities (especially considering hive has no L1 smart contracts). HTLC cross chain swaps using VSC (hooked in with HIVE) is a well understood problem with known advantages and disadvantages
I think a bridge and some DEX listings would be a good starting point.
Who will do it though? I know nothing about it. Someone that understands the tech and the backend needs to push it along.
I guess block trades is the man to reach out to them. But once hive is bridged to Wanchain pretty much anything will be possible. They mainly focus on the big ones at moment but they will connect anyone who is interested im pretty sure. Wanchain don't make shit bridges with exploit possibilities, its done properly never hacked never will be.
Then we need someone with a good reputation on Hive to do it...
If I had to guess... if it comes to it ultimately and water is up to our necks the core devs will act. Id still rather they not be forced into and someone else thinks up a solution pro actively.
Liability problems are manageable through collateralization and chain proofs. Preferably no multisigs, and definitely no single party.
I see it as an opportunity to bring hive on coinbase, to fill the binance US gap, and expand wrapped hive on uniswap.
My guess is that Coinbase is again one of those that only lists centralized cryptocurrencies with companies and CEOs behind them.
Bridges are often target of hacks and exploits, but without them we are completely cut off from the rest of the world.
I know that https://hive-engine.com/ already acts somehow as a bridge and I've used it here and there with very good results.
Yeah, I mean I use it all the time but theres just not enough liquidity there and I dont think most investors here will see it as an optimal solution.
That's true: we can call it a "start", but we need something bigger and more appealing even for non-hivers.
The issue however is always the same: who is gonna do it? We have also all the talking around the DHF, which probably needs some attention too... we need a way to better manage those funds and use them to develop things like a bridge.
Im with you on that.
I proposed 2 things.
If we had a bounty system we could get someone to do it im almost certain.
So this would be something like "deliver and then get paid", right? Or at least "get paid everytime you complete a major step in the developement of the project". To me it looks like a great idea, as this would have at least two huge advantages:
I like that too, even if this looks harder to implement. The "watchers" must be indipendent, with no links with the developers, and have themselves some sort of "watchers" above them, as otherwise the risk of them colluding with someone to cheat the system would be too high.
We would need more levels of safety:
It would be a proposal made by someone in the community for certain work. what we want delivered and then interested parties would make their offers. THe community votes on the offers.
yeah, absolutely. There is too much comradery, which is good, between community members so you would need someone independent to do it.
fyi, hive-engine bridges are 100% centralized and reliant on a single entity.
Thanks for the info! Beside https://hive-engine.com/ are there other bridges?
We are working on bridges for @vsc.network. Not quite ready yet though, but soon
bridge to wanchain. The rest is already there money can go where ever. Bridges are shit if you don't make them correctly. Thankfully they do it correctly.
#hive #posh
Weird world could come to pass -- the way to HIVE is through SPS LPs on ETH and BSC chains!
I am very curious how HIVE plans to resolve this. I came here through Splinterlands, so I do not know the ins / outs of HIVE community. I hope power players take this seriously though.
Haha. Yeah I thought about that as well.
People will claim liability problems and trust issues but ultimately they will use the only options theyre left with just so they dont have to do anything.
Its kinda funny. :)
Hive will not fall, even if its about to, there will be a rescuer because after the wind, there will be calmness. We all are praying for Hive, our pride.
Hmm nice statement
If we can get a funding for thorchain integeration, most of crosschain swaps problems could be solved. I'm not sure if HIVE currently have a funtionality to decentralize funds that can help with thorchain or need extra work (Hard Forks) but that's definitely to consider.
Once we are there, you can swap for any L1s directly and some of apps built on thorchain have layer 2 and multi dex integeration making it easy to swap for other tokens.
Yeah, I noticed that as a solution but again... I just dont know how the backend would work for that. What the requirements are and issues.
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Normally, being listed on Binance is huge and it can be painful if the exchange goes down or fail
Actually, a complicated way for small amounts is to use Leo via BNB or even ETH or Polygon.
https://wleo.io/leo-bsc/
link
Hi @lordbutterfly I share your concern over Bittrex and Binance, and wanted to mention that @khaleelkazi built a bridge between Hive and Binance Smart Chain, and a bridge between Hive and Polygon. This allows investors to buy Hive and HBD on Binance Smart Chain or Polyhon, then bridge it back to Hive. Conversely this allows Hive accounts to send Hive and HBD to the above blockchains, where it can be exchanged for Bitcoin and stable coins like USDC and others. You can explore the bridge here: #khaleelkazi #anomadsoul #scaredycatguide
All of this tend to bring about regulations I case if does what then is the based brain behind crypto currency and blockchain. Seen if some large exchange begins to have difficulty by the government , just obvious and certain enough others exchanges will play smart by changing initials to get on the safe side.
Hope things get normal and okay , thank you for sharing.
Men, I didn't even know it was going to affect us like this. When CZ was fired I thought "Hmm good for them, hopefully they get someone better".
I didn't know it may cos some commotion in the coin listings on binance.
But we have other exchange platforms like Huobi, that exchange hive right?
No bridges? What about cub and polycub, and xpolycub, and all those things. Wasn't there even a thing called leobridge at one point? Not that I ever used any of them for accessing other blockchains, but I kinda remember that that's what they were all supposed to be about.
This topic is really interesting but it will take time to really grasp the meaning of the conversations if you're just a newbie on this space. Anyway thanks a lot for the valuable insights.