I generally try to avoid airing opinions on subjects I feel I am unfamiliar with.
And politics... well, I suppose an important part of wanting the best in a space like Hive inherently involves getting involved in politics.
I find the dynamics that are generated very interesting, but there are also days when I hate it as much as the next guy.
I think it is necessary to deal with both issues in the same post, as I believe they are closely related.
Let's get down to it.
Decentralized Hive Fund (aka DHF)
For months now I have had the feeling that as a community we are misusing the funds associated with the DHF.
I don't want to go into detail and start naming names, because I repeat, I don't have the technical knowledge to assess 100% to what extent something is ''worthy or not'' of being funded by the DHF.
But seriously... can't we try to do better?
in many proposals I see some or all of the same patterns repeated, which can be quickly summarized like that.
- Lack of clarity on what the funds are being spent on (with little or directly NO accounting).
- Little or no interaction and/or follow-up by the operator.
- No end date.
I don't know what the rest of you think, but in my opinion a proposal should be valid only if:
It has a ''business proposition'' format. With a beginning and an end, a realistic estimate of costs and the potential/expected profit.
This is kind of obvious, but I think that if a project is funded for x amount of time. At the end of this time it must or should be self-sustainable.
Unless we are talking about a product that greatly improves the quality of life in the chain. In that case I think you should be very punctilious and make a price breakdown to know precisely how much it costs to MAINTAIN that.
- The code should be open source for all of us to use (that's why we paid for it, right?). If this is not the case for xyz reason, there should be a decentralisation roadmap.
In my opinion a person/project receiving funds MUST have a certain degree of involvement in Hive. And yes, that also means owning HIVE.
Certain recipients of DHF funds have 'only' a few thousands worth of HIVE in their account after YEARS of receiving hundreds of dollars worth of HIVE/HBD daily.
And yes, I agree that if you are paid for a job you are free to do what you want with your salary.
But understand me where there is a conflict of interest if you are ''representing'' HIVE at conferences or if you have been developing an application/product in Hive for years and have literally NOTHING to show for it.
Do you care that much about Hive? Fine. Show me your wallet and your involvement. Otherwise I won't trust your word.
In other words. SKIN IN THE GAME.
Proposals should be for maintaining applications and their associated infrastructure. Not to sustain a certain pace of life for a certain number of people.
I don't think I'm saying anything out of the ordinary. I think it's very logical.
HBD APR
For 2-3 years we have been paying 20% on a sustained basis and are now looking at reducing to 15% or less.
I think the idea behind it is great (reduce the burden cost for the chain). But the underlying justification we are giving it is not. This is also where the DHF comes in.
According to the latest data available to me, there are currently 7.7M HBDs in savings.
At 20% APR, we would be talking about ~1,5M HBD/year in added inflation.
At 15% APR, we would be talking about ~1,1M HBD/year in added inflation.
Currently the DHF is paying around ~4K HBD daily or ~1,4M HBD/year (WITHOUT counting valueplan!)
Can you see the problem there?
Or we have 2 (Both DHF and HBD APR are paying far too much and we should cut our burden).
Or we have 0 (We're fine as we are).
But if we are ''fine'', then in my opinion HBD's APR should not be lowered.
If this is the case, we are, I am sorry to say, cheating ourselves by playing solitaire.
I don't like to tag massively, so I won't do it.
but I would like if some users with stake could share their insights and have a healthy discussion about this matter.
I'm being overly dramatic? I'm right? I'm wrong? Dunno.
Only thing I 100% know.
If you're a Hive user, please use your power and participate in governance.
Have a great weekend everyone.Ah, and vote for my witness @empo.witness. (Still signaling 20%).
I agree that accountability and transparency are very lacking in regards to many DHF proposals.
I personally think saving APR should be no higher than 10%, don't compete with HIVE APR, just compete with FIAT savings APRs. Get people to buy into HBD and save on chain in full control of their assets as opposed to trusting banks etc.
Generally.. from a statistical stand point. HBD printing is fine. We can go as far as 30% of HIVE market cap before the system self regulates and stops printing HBD.
So if HBD equates to anywhere between 15-25% of hives market cap I personally don't think we need to cut back at all.
That being said.. We absolutely need DHF proposal users to be transparent and accountable for what and HOW they spend that money. If the are not doing so efficiently then they shouldn't be funded in the first place.
Some would argue the HBD printing at this point is creating too much sell pressure.. No..
The problem is we're not generating any BUY pressure.. We're giving people absolutely 0 reason to power up hive. Most people don't even know we exist there is that little marketing and presence, though it's improve somewhat in recently it's still far from being enough.
Onboarding and retention are absolutely garbage, front end UX experiences are not optimal and dated. There's a lot that needs fixing yet seemingly nothing is getting done.
Also agree with everything should have an end date with being fully self-sufficient and self funding. We should never need to have proposals for maintaining projects.. full stop. There isn't a single thing that I can think of that can not in one way or another become self sufficient.
I'm a hive witness supporting the blockchain.
It's still very extended the ''Hive is for spending, not saving''. Although it's easy to fall in the falacy at the bottom of bear markets.
ideally my post is a capitulation signal.
For now, HBD at 20% apr is good. If we don't manage to grow a 20% year after year we are fcked anyway.
And we need vastly higher amounts of HBD in circulation to enable HBD itself as a stablecoin. But giving them away irrepsonsibly is not the solution.
overall I agree with most of what you said.
Pd. I'll vote for your witness, thx for letting me know.
It's the people with a 1m+ HP supporting proposals who have the most stake and don't mind the inflation. Blocktrades support for the VP is an example of this but they have the most at stake and think it's good. They can almost single handedly push a proposal past the return proposal, so if you want to stop this Hive Oligarchy, collectively support the return proposal. Who am I with 22k hp to tell them what to do with their 24 million votes?
Nothing we do is going to make a difference, beyond coming together and supporting the return proposal in a massive way to make funding all projects very difficult, then implementing a burn proposal to get rid of the excess HBD in the pool. As a Canadian I'm used to those in control squandering money and wasting it on useless salaries and various pet projects. Why should we expect anything different from HIVE?
As for a 15% APR or 20% APR, no token should be having any inflation without a corresponding improvement in quality, or we will see its value go down over time. The inflation should be 1 to 2%.
In that sense I agree that I have wondered what is the reason for blocktrades to keep voting for these proposals.
He is a clear example of someone I respect a lot here and to some extent trust his judgement. If he thinks it is necessary to continue funding this I would give him the benefit of the doubt at the very least.
If @blocktrades could share his opinion regarding the current state of the DHF and APR on savings It would be very appreciated.
on the other hand, I think you shouldn't underestimate your 22K HP.
Assuming 180M HIVE staked, your vote of 22K represents a 0,012% stake.
In my case with 250K HP it's a 0,138%
When I vote for the presidency on my country (Spain). My vote equals the same vs every other active citizen.
We are 37M active citizens so 1 vote equals to = 0,000000270%
Look at it from the following perspective:
It only takes ~8000 people with your stake (22K HP) to equal the current 100%
Have a nice day.
Don't forget to participate in gov!
I discount my stake because there are only a few hundred active people with a stake larger than mine and getting them to agree on something is like herding cats. It's understandable why people power down or avoid investing in Hive.
I've spoken with some people before about marketing and analytics but my concerns fell on deaf ears. As someone with a background in this stuff I was virtually ignored. Some of these people can't analyze their way out of a paper bag (they are IT workers not financial analysts) and don't want to give up any shred of power to someone who can.
Who wants to be told that the rally car is the dumbest marketing idea since New Coke- people who watch that sport might not be our target audience, there are zero analytics on the impact of that advertising versus other types, so give it up! (Maybe they don't because of corruption.)
They don't even have a plan except to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. Spending funds on random events in the third world is not a good use of funds- they share no way of judging the impact of the proposal on hive's value because they know it's negative accounting for the inflation.
They are scaring away people with funds from investing and the price of Hive continues to drop surprisingly faster than the inflation as people with HP give up. What's the point in participating in governance here, to protect my $4000 investment? I could make a better return mowing lawns...
Oooopss!
Sadly, I can agree with most of what you say. But it is only my perception of what is going on and I may well be wrong.
And the same goes for me. Have a good Sunday mate. A pleasure to share these words.
That's why we need to work together. It only takes 1K 24K HP accounts to counter vote a 24M HP account. Right now that might seem like a lot, but it really isn't.
Lol...are there even that many active accounts with 24K HP?
On second thought, the average account size might be lower in terms of HP, but in numbers much higher than 1,000. Maybe @dalz can provide this number.
Not yet. That's why we need to encourage users to acquire HIVE and stake it as Hive Power. It's really not that hard.
Oh, it is that hard.
Why would anyone want to acquire and hold Hive when the hottest thing in crypto right now is to blow your money away in the Solana memes?
Here, I have to babysit people's feelings.
People are free to blow their money on Solana memes if they wish. I'm not into that.
To help secure the network and vote for proposals and users that share my values. There are a bunch of medium-sized (50-100K HP) that have this vision and work towards helping others see it too.
Good luck with that.
As far as the DHF you are completely correct. The funds there misused and in my opinion the value plan is just a money incinerator. It offers 0 return on have and it is mainly focused in promoting hive in communities that will sell it as fast as they will earn it .
This 100%.
I'm all into promoting hive, but as we are using it it's being insta dumped.
100% agree, value plan at least for me, not worth it, plus they dont need tons of money, sad to say it, but i see ppl trying to "influence" and they dont even know how to talk and attract real interest... pure meritocracy, but the bad one.
if there is no change in less than 4 months, then the plan is not working, stop wasting money on it, ppl can lie and say "i made this or that use hive" and? are those investors? are those ppl being active? building? doing something at least productive??? ? no? then its not working at all.
sick and tired to see "projects" with tons of money that end up being nothing but laundering money.
I'm sure you've seen my comments being critical of the DHF in the BRO server. I am 100% with you. As is, we are just throwing money away. Proposals need to include a hell of a lot more details than they do now. Now, many of them amount to "Gimme muh money!", or in the case of the SPL proposal "pay up or we might think about leaving Hive". Proposals need to be more detailed, then if passed, there needs to be weekly progress checks. Miss a weekly progress check? Funding is instantly removed.
I like your idea that to get a proposal passed, you also have to hold a certain level of HIVE. We might also add a requirement (that might be waved in certain situations) that you have to have been a member of Hive for a certain number of years. Both of these would show commitment to the Hive Blockchain.
Anyway, I'm totally with you. I'm happy to see more and more people are raising awareness of the issue. Right now the next things we can do are spread awareness and encourage all our followers to support the return proposal. Let's get that thing as high as possible! All together, we have more HP than the whales. Let's use it.
As for the APR, yeah I agree on that too. I don't understand the rational behind dropping it to 15%. I would be open to the drop if it's for the good of Hive, but I would appreciate if some of the witnesses who dropped their APR would post with their rational for doing so.
There is no rationale. Just like the Feds arbitrarily decided that 2% is a healthy level of inflation.
I agree on all points raised here and from what I have seen thus far the DHF funding is having a negative and not a positive impact on Hive. These payouts are being dumped and you have to ask the serious questions of who or what is benefitting from this. Where is the accountability because it looks like there is none. Don't get me started on our third rate rally car because that is totally insane. I have kept quiet about what has been happening and I think we need to be more vocal. For someone like myself who is pedantic about costs and spend and knows his numbers we need to change how this is all managed. I for one would gladly put my hand up (for free) even if it was just to oversee and dig deeper into the figures assessing if a project is in the best interest of Hive or not.
100% agree from my cautious side.
Hope you're doing great sir
We need to stop being cautious and speak up about things that concern all of us. I am always good thanks and hope you are good too.
When I mean cautious I'm not saying ''afraid''. I'm cautious about talking things which I don't 100% understand; like for example some of those proposals are valued.
maybe they're 'competitive' and I'm just plain wrong.
but yes, If I'm talking is because I'm concerned. And this is not the time to fuck up with the HBD APR.
Understand and yes some of the proposals do have value and having a better understanding would help show which ones are good for Hive. Yes I am concerned with HBD/APR as well.
100% agreed with everything you wrote, especially the way DHF is used. It would be also a good point of discussion how "descentralized" our chain actually is...
Ps. Hope the new job is going well! Saludos! !BEER
In fact it's very decentralized. Problem is participation % is very low and most people simply doesn't care. But the rules are fair and have been working as intended for years.
Solution long term = keep buying Hive and alter the gov.
Which gives me an idea, but that's a topic for another day.
Maybe this is the reason why it feels just a selected few are running the show; kind of mimics real life politics!
Working on it! ;)
Good post that I totally agree with. I would also add that if at some point a serious investor were interested in HIVE, which I highly doubt will happen at this point, it would not be very good for him to discover the DHF business nor how the high-stakes witnesses treat the value of the APR without even reasonably justifying their reason for doing so. It seems to me that we are losing a lot of credibility among hypothetical investors, if there are any interested. Also, it occurs to me that if we continue lowering the APR I fear that this will only add more pressure to the price of HIVE...
Yes, HBD apr is a sensible topic and if we touch it too much we can generate a massive mega dump from hundreds of thousands of Hive being dumped at once.
However, I disagree with topic of the ''serious money''. Hive doesn't have yet good onramp/offramps because we have been very reluctant to pay for listings.
Hopefully VSC improves the field in that sense.
Com va per Malaisia?
Molt bé, molt xulo i econòmic tot, de moment ens quedem un parell de dies mes a Kuala Lumpur, després anem al nord, platgeta i selva
Increïble ha de ser.
A gaudir!
I see DHF as a start up incubator. Come with an idea, prepare business plan and apply for funding. Within a couple of years maximum, you should grow independent on the DHF, and start generating profit for yourself and value for the network. So yes, I 100% agree that we (as everyone of us) should insist on proposals defining goals and deliverables, and then asking for accountability. That being said, I would love Worldmappin where I belong to the team follow this path.
Yes, then you have something like core development and so, which does not generate profit of its own, but those proposals are not the disputed ones.
I also see it as a incubator. that's exactly the point. 100% agree with you mate
The only way a DHF proposal should pass IMO is
As for the APR that should have been reduced well over a year ago to 15% at least but really 10%.
But I also agree that the DHF is pumping out just stupid amounts of money for the very little it contributing to hive overall and like your figures said that's not even counting one of the biggest exit points which is the valueplan which I believe is near 1 million in itself a year especially with their little round of burst revenue they just pushed through two weeks ago.
15% APR is dumb, and 10% is even dumber because these are on-paper APRs and not the effective APR of the savings. Whatever APR is on-paper shave 3 to 4% to get the effective APR due to non-existent liquidity.
This.
Disagree with the 20/15/10% apr topic but I share the overall point and understand what you mean. Thx for commenting sir
mira @eddiespino creo que esto explica mejor como deberian de hacer las cosas
En realidad es un poco queja/molestia que hace ya tiempo que tenía rondando en la cabeza y necesitaba soltar.
Sin pasos prácticos sobre qué hacer después queda un poco en saco rato.
Pero no sé... si sirve para que según que holders se replanteen sus votos... ya ha servido.
I would prefer to see consistency in monetary policy and HBD APR remain at 20% for a long time if not forever. Interest spent goes back to Hive stakeholders unlike other Hive rewards and payments.
I can't do nothing else than 100% agree with you.
HBD apr goes fully directly into community members who wants into it.
Reading this, and some of the comments I’m certainly going to change my philosophy on the proposals and even the return proposal. I’m going to add my support to the return proposal. We need to make it harder for the DHF funds to be used and as well force a better template for people.
I wonder if there’s a way to try and request a proposal structure that people need to adhere to in order to get a proposal funded? I think that would be good.
..should I write a proposal to get funded to educate on the proposals? :D
The HBD APR is annoying for sure - I’ve had the opinion for a while - don’t change shit on the downturns when people are nervous and unsure about what the future holds. Make these changes when things are back in the green territory. If you’ve got it at 20% im likely supporting you! I have worked hard for my stake and although it’s modest, it’s still the best way I can push for change I believe in. I removed my witness votes for all the top people who are signaling under 20% APR. there’s no reason I can think of to change it. If we want to attract more people - we need to have more assets and that means lots more HBD.
100% agree regarding that we shouldn't be changing things at the bottom or near the bottom of HIVE bear market.
Thanks for taking this approach. With more HIVE citizens like you things would be different! :)
I think my biggest issue here is the fact that the reduction in interest rate has little to do with any of that. It seems more like some kind of retaliation over what is happening with a few projects here. If the motives were pure, 15% is still a dang good ROI when compared to most real world investments.
Oh, no conspiracy theory? Can you elaborate?
As far as I understand it, it all ties back to the Splinterlands proposal in the DHF and some retaliatory witness voting.
And do you know how it why that's supposed to be connected to HBD APR?
? The witnesses who didn't support the proposal lost votes and the witnesses who did gained votes. Just so happens those same witnesses have their interest rate set lower.
That's hilarious, who comes up with shit like that?
There was definitely witness vote buying going on, that's been documented in posts and comments on chain. The rest I don't know, I'm not saying it's fake news though.
Thank you for your witness vote!
Have a !BEER on me!
To Opt-Out of my witness beer program just comment STOP below
This
Read and support proposals are important, also, the result reports
View or trade
BEER.I think the DHF needs accountability and at least channel the money towards productivity. I'll rather stick with giving the money to SPL rather than something random that brings no value.
One of the downside of staked based governance is that it might not completely work and can be coerced and lobbied
I found this post late. To add my two cents on both subjects.
The problem with Hive and building stake is it’s essentially money. If you want to buy tokens - must use Hive. Enter games or buy nfts - use Hive. There are very few opportunities to use HBD.
As for the DHF, I rather see one person, one vote instead of weighted voting.
True that we need more usecases for HBD, but these will come naturally with smart contracts.
I cant wait to use HIVE/HBD to take a backed loan in the future for example. This would be a great use case.
Regarding the 1 person 1 vote. This can't work here.
What could stop anyone to create an army of accounts? Nah. inviable. weighted HP is a must for gov.
I try to stay out of Hive politics but like many others, this all didn't go unnoticed and it sure gave a bad taste in my mouth several times. The lack of transparency is clearly an issue many are not ok with, I've read it so many times in the past weeks and I think it's only normal to give updates when your project is funded by the community.
What @bozz said about the retaliation is true, it's just some people trying to pressure the others into doing what they want and it's not a great look. I wonder if people can get past all this and things change for the better at some point (like adding transparency as a must for the DHF funds spent).
You have my witness vote btw, I checked to see if I already added you before this, which was the case.
Saludos!
Ojalá todo vaya cambiando para mejor pero la verdad es que ese cambio no vendrá por si solo.
También estamos en la fase de capitulación de nuestro ciclo en particular. Así que este tipo de posts incluyendo el mío son un buen indicador.
Muchas gracias querida!