Unregistered Security Tokens vs Freeroll Poker
Yes you read that right. According to some, even if you never risk a dime of your own money playing poker, it's still "gambling". And you will get muted in their gaming community without any research on their part ... or critical thinking for that matter.
However, you can buy hundreds of dollars of card packs with monsters or heroes on them to fight other players in games to ... win money ... and of course that's not gambling to these same people.
You can upload vidoes that are less than 2 minutes long into their community (we were invited to post in) and show yourself battling it out with a randomly generated outcome with the hopes of ... winning money after risking your own money to play ... and that's just fine and it's of course ... not gambling.
Playing a game of skill where it's YOU vs ANOTHER PERSON where you can even win with an inferior collection of cards and do it repeatedly because ... it's a game of skill, well that's just "gambling" according to these same people, despite putting up none of your own money.
Yes folks, buying cards with your own money with cute, futuristic or monsterous things on them and battling undisclosed RNG code to hopefully win more money (as long as your monsters are more powerful than the other person's or AI's cards) equals not gambling. Not to mention most of these crypto games NFT's and tokens are actually "Securities" according to the Howey Test ... but that's just fine apparently (until they get big enough and the SEC shows up for their fine in the millions).
Versus
Not putting any of your own money into playing freeroll poker (a skill based game that's not illegal and doesn't sell obvious unregistered securities) against actual human opponents where you can win with 2 of the crappiest cards known to mankind and win money with no risks at all ... equals "gambling" to these same people.
The fact is, the people who have this mindset likely know nothing about the laws regarding poker (and other online gaming) or why people think poker is illegal (it's not) to play online. We even outlined this logical fallacy in a post and include a link to it at the bottom of every post.
These same types of people have likely invested into NFT's in the Hive ecosystem that according to the Howey Test are more than likely unregistered Securities, buy into tokens that are more than likely unregistered Securities and promote them (it's illegal to promote unregistered securities) in this same community.
One lead developer on Hive even stated publicly, on an immutable blockchain, that his token is more than likely an unregistered security according to the Howey Test. But guess what ... this same gaming community promotes that games posts repeatedly, despite the fact that their NFT's and token fit the definition of a security according to the Howey Test.
A lot of the Hive community supports this game which is selling a token and an NFT that fit the exact description of an unregistered security and promote it far and wide and have no issue with it whatsoever. Yet ... they hear the word "poker" and all of a sudden they have an issue.
It's nothing new though. This is the way it's been for a long time due to the governments (mainly the US gov) clamping down on "money laundering" (not poker) in the United States and then most people (who don't actually read articles, but only headlines) got it into their heads that "poker is illegal".
No, playing poker online is not illegal and never has been. Money laundering and unregistered security tokens (probably like the one's these same people promote) are illegal though.
Anyway, I just wanted to vent because it's annoying to see a community and ecosystem openly promote tokens and NFT's that can't pass the Howey Test (i.e. an unregistered security), the lead developers describe their token by the exact definition of an unregistered security and are too uninformed on the law to even realize that they've just admitted this ... on an immutable blockchain. 😖
It's crazy, but on Hive we have people blindly supporting illegal activity and promoting it (which I've read is a crime #DYOR), but a game of skill that is free to play with no risks whatsoever is a problem and considered "gambling" for these same people in this gaming community.
The amount of cognitive dissonance required to come to these conclusions is either based in complete ignorance, willful ignorance or simply the fact that they benefit from the illegal activity and not from the legal activity, therefore the legal activity is muted in their community.
Maybe read up on the Howey Test, then go talk to some of the developers (like I did) at some of these games you openly promote on Hive and in your gaming community and discover ...
"Oh sh-t, I'm promoting an unregistered SECURITY and that's illegal!" 🤦♂
All images licensed via Shutterstock
To Whom It May Concern:
I've been a member of the Poker Community for over four and a half years now.. ever since finding Steemit long ago, and now on Hive. It is impossible to "gamble" on the poker site, you cannot send Hive there and gamble with it.
Tournaments that have HIVE Prizes are sponsored by the Hive community. We've had Top 20 Witnesses sponsor huge tournaments. In fact, ALL HIVE Tournaments are Witness sponsored.
I sponsor a tournament every weekend for the Community. Nothing major mind you.. but I've always given back ever since I joined. I freely donate HIVE, so the people of Hive have a place to play some poker.. for free if they so choose.
It is a donation, and I make the decision to donate my HIVE. I also donate my time as well.
I support most games on Hive, even though I do not play them. I've even played some games on Steemit, like Drug Wars, and that space colonization game.. that I forget the name of and etc. In those games, I paid A LOT of Steem and I lost out because the games fizzled out or whatever. There were grand promises made, that were never kept.
My point is, I gambled my coins on those games.. and I lost. And to be honest, those games left me not wanting to play games like that again. I would much rather just give the coins away and have some fun.
I enjoy playing the Game of Poker. It takes time and dedication, to learn the skills needed to win a tournament. You cannot buy your way to a win. You cannot upgrade your cards. You get what you get, and you better have the chops to take home the win. It's not really about the coins, it's all about the Win. With that being said..
Have An Awesome Day!
I knew there would be an overreaction to my reply as soon as I saw your message in the Discord. I feel like it should be unnecessary to repeat myself but I guess I'll have to. As I said I'm fully aware that your site doesn't let people gamble their money away but poker in general is related to gambling. Also while poker is a game it's not gaming in the sense that we're looking for in this community.
Never once did I tell you to leave the community. You yourself uttered the words "I won't post in your community any longer, sorry" so that was your own choice.
I play Hearthstone. I play poker on Lucksaks. I have sunk more money (USD) into Hearthstone than I ever have into playing poker on Lucksaks. Lucksaks has cost me ZERO USD and ZERO Hive.
Both games are based on cards. Both games are based on card RNG. Both games are based on the SKILL you learn over time.
Poker is a lot more fun and interactive. You meet people from all over the world while playing and form friendships. One could call those friendships GUILDS.
Guilds or teams could play against other teams for the prize to see who is the best team.
There is no difference. It should never be treated as such.
Also coming to someone's post and being snotty is rude. If you are not adult enough to learn how to express yourself without being rude you should learn. You get farther in life when you treat people fairly and try and see both sides to an argument.
If you would have come to this post and calmly stated your problem with Lucksaks posting in your group I would have taken you seriously and looked into your side more. As it stands I read your first reply and how it was worded and dismissed any claims you had. You came here throwing a temper tantrum and were treated as such by the author of this post.
My reply best left unsaid cause I would rip em all a new asshole.
Didn’t and don’t have a problem with Lucksacks posting in the community. We had a mod misunderstand a rule but listening to reasoning wasn’t on Lucksacks agenda today. They’d rather throw this tantrum and segregate themselves.
Let us try this again...
I am immature. Always will be.
For a man that is running a gaming company to build a RPG game on the blockchain and needs investors saying
is really not a good look. Just a little advice.
Have a wonderful day.
I am not running any company and am not building any RPG so you must have me confused with someone else.
Correcting your misconception of what defines "gambling" is not an overreaction, it's stating facts to a person who is spreading falsehoods in an effort to explain away the fact that your community used a misconception to mute a post ... yet openly allows likely unregistered securities to post and profit in that same community.
Me exposing this dichotomy to stop this illogical thinking and completely untrue (and repeated statements) over the past 5 years is a neccessity so that no further harm can come to OUR community by people who don't grasp the very definition of the word they are using in public.
Then your next statement makes absolutely no sense at all to me.
No.
In general most people can look up the definition of "gambling" for themselves and figure out that freeroll "poker in general is related to gambling" is an ill-informed statement that is biased by the speakers own lack of knowledge on what the word they are using means as it pertains to the subject they are commenting on (freeroll poker, where no wagers exist).
This is your opinion and unfortunately a popular misconception.
Poker != gambling.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gambling
Poker is a game of skill and Freeroll poker involves NO wagers whatsoever on the players part (which btw, is the definition of gambling).
People can actually "gamble" on anything, like whether or not your above statement is true or false. If any 2 people wager or a third party wagers or helps with the wager, then that is gambling.
When no people involved wager anything of value, that is not gambling, by not only the very definition of gambling, but by law.
A game is a game. ANY game can be played without gambling, even those found in casinos. That doesn't mean those games are "gambling" games, they're just games and gambling is gambling. The two are not the same.
Then why was I invited to post in this gaming community? I was fine not posting in your community, but then I was invited to post in your community. This seems more like a CYA statement than anything based in reality, to me personally.
I see that likely unregistered security tokens are fine to illegally promote in your community, but legal poker gaming is not, and that's fine and it's your decision and I will abide by your very misguided (IMHO) decision.
Your community continues to allow others to illegally promote likely unregistered securities but have an issue with the longest running legal game on STEEM/HIVE distributing HIVE to people with no risks at all. To each their own.
I never said you did.
I said I wouldn't post in your community any longer since it allows people to illegally promote likely unregistered securities (as admitted by the developer), yet mutes legal gaming that distributes HIVE to others with no risks or investment at all.
I would never want to be part of such a misguided community who allows likely illegal activity (not only be definition but by the letter of the law) and dissuades legal gaming that promotes the Hive blockchain and HIVE distribution to others.
Whatever. I said I would look into it by which I meant talking to the other mods and get their reasoning but before you let me you went on a 800 word rant with a followup 600 comment. Enjoy your day and good luck with your site.
"Whatever."
You sound like my 15-year old daughter when she overreacts to something, gets called out for overreacting and can't BEAR to take responsibility for her mistake, much less rectify it.
Also, luck has nothing to do with either poker or the success of Lucksacks... we've weathered worse than you and your adorable mute button before. However, your passive aggressive, fake-ass 'good luck' brings me right back to my 15 year old daughter being a big baby, so at least you're consistent.
Well I wanted to get clarity in the case by talking to the mod who mutes the post first but because I called poker related to gambling, which it is, and now we're here. It's not like I'm trying to get you shut down or something or get you to leave Hive.
Whatever.
wrong account, lol, sorry
Poker fights a bad rep because of people like you who shriek, 'eeek! gambling bad!! poker bad!!' even when they've been informed that they are not the same thing.
But yeah, whatever.
It's very telling that you choose to address "gambling" regarding a site where you admit there is no gambling ... yet don't at all address the fact that your community allows tokens that fail the Howey Test (and admitted by the lead dev) be promoted repeatedly and ... that's just fine apparently.
Not gambling = muted.
Illegal activity = that's fine.
You know Hive is decentralized so whether something is illegal in the US doesn't really matter?
I can turn this around and say that in my country poker is considered to be gambling so that just invalidates your argument.
So you're saying, the guy based in the USA who's openly selling a likely unregistered security and promoting it on the Hive blockchain has nothing to worry about and neither do his USA based investors or those promoting it, simply because Hive is decentralized? 🤣
Oh it may not matter to you, but it sure as Hell matters to the guy living in the USA doing the illegal activity, I can guarantee you that. The fact that he admits his token fails the Howey Test and his name and address are publicly available should be a concern for not only himself, but anyone invested in and promoting that token on Hive.
Why it's allowed to thrive here is beyond me, considering you guys have your panties in a wad over a legal play chip poker site. It seems to me that you are spending a lot of time on the wrong thing being promoted by and within your community and it's members.
If you really care so much about the content in your community, perhaps focus more on those activities that are illegal and not so much on those that are legal yet don't fit your personal idea of what "gaming" is.
Now to use your own argument against you ...
I can turn this around and say that in my country poker is considered gaming so that just invalidates your argument.
If Hive is as decentralized as you say, why are you determining what "gaming" is all on your own or your communities mods on their own?
Others in your community probably have a very different opinion on whether or not poker is gaming, so why not let the actual #decentralized community decide instead of a couple of guys with power to mute? 🤔
See, now that whole #decentralized argument bites you and your mods in the ass doesn't it? You want to dictate what gaming is, without letting your community decide, so your community is not decentralized at all, it's basically an oligarchy on Hive.
And I'm ok with that, do what you want, but don't go throwing around words like #decentralized when you're part of an oligarch choosing what gaming is and what isn't based on your feels and then trying to redefine words to suit some narrative to win an online debate.
Also, I'm curious, if Hive is so decentralized, why does one guy keep getting DMCA notices for things/images/videos posted on Hive and then he feels obligated to deal with them? 🤔
That's odd to me.
You can say whatever you want, that doesn't make it a reasonable argument, especially when we don't allow people to even register on our site if play chip gaming is not allowed in their jurisdiction.
Show me the law that backs up your statement.
Show me exactly where it says that poker, in and of itself, equals gambling. Not that it has any bearing on this discussion whatsoever or would invalidate any points I've made, I just want you to stop throwing out red herrings hoping someone will buy into them.
Re-read my above reply on that topic. No game in and of itself = gambling. You're really going out on a limb here to redefine a word and it's just not going to work unless you can pay off Websters like the Democrats in America. 😉
Gambling requires a wager. A game (or anything else) can be played without wagering, therefore there is no "gambling". Gambling can't exist without 2 or more parties wagering something of value. No game in and of itself = gambling and it never will no matter how hard you try to spin it.
Facts matter and what you've stated is not a fact, it's an imaginary thing you've manifested into existence hoping someone would believe it.
Attempting to make the word "gambling" (or any other word) mean something it doesn't mean, no matter what country you reside in, doesn't make it mean something other than it's universal definition.
BTW, my post was well over 800 words, stop selling me short.
I'm only spending time on this because you wrote an 800 word post on the matter instead of continuing the conversation in Discord where you first reached out to us.
You're free to create your own community where you decide the rules. I'll even donate the 3 HIVE cost if you want.
This "gambling" thing is so silly. Especially on a crypto platform 😅
I learned how to play poker on lucksacks.com in freerolls thanks to Tuck and other members. A bit more than a year ago I started to play on other platforms too (where you need to put money on the line). I had 1 negative month since then and 15 straight positive months with exponential growth in profit. Cant' say the same about crypto 😅Crypto is way way more of a gamble than poker. In poker you need only a few skills - to have patience and understand math and human behavior.
This whole situation was blown out of proportion by you. You came into our discord and asked a why the post was muted and @pusen told you that he was going to find it out, then you throw a hissy fit like a child and write novels trying to bash the gaming community instead of waiting until @pusen found out who muted the post. It was muted by one of our mods that is not a native English speaker and this whole situation could have been fixed pretty easily. Pretty disappointed in the Lucksacks team for this whole thing.
pretty disappointed your mods would just mute without understanding.
Could have been fixed pretty easily without the temper tantrum from your team.
No one had to care about what Tuck wrote. Turns out he is allowed to have his opinions without worrying about others' feelings. The fact that he's right about the hypocrisy involved is what gets under y'all's skin, so you throw your 'whatevers' and your 'hissy fit' and 'i'm so disappointed in you' - dad voice around instead of listening and making positive changes.
Probably everyone is over this by now (hopefully) but I didn't have time to get back on yesterday so... anyway.
It was just one post tho, why all the drama if we can remove the mute with just 2 clicks?
Oh yeah, because it's easier to be dramatic and make a completely absurd post instead of just waiting for an answer, right?
No one here cares about the mute. Everyone at HGC is focusing on the mute we care nothing about. Posting in your community wasn't helping us, we were invited to post so we did and now we won't.
It's about calling our site "gambling" and how it hurts our community and support for our community by continuing to spew that nonsense publicly.
It was your mod who came on our post where I addressed the "gambling" fallacy and in the same sentence where he states that he knows we don't allow gambling he says "poker in general is related to gambling". Then went on to say that poker wasn't even gaming according to the HGC.
So I pointed out that HGC allows the promoting of a game that doesn't exist and sells a token classified by US law as an unregistered security and that's considered "gaming" by HGC.
It's also considered "illegal" in the US where the lead developer resides. So it's just funny to me that you guys openly allow the promotion of a non-existent game selling an unregistered security (by the owners own admission) in your community while claiming you muted our post due to "gambling" (yet your mod knows we don't allow gambling) and that ours is not even "gaming". 😂
And now to make it even odder, "your team" is saying that some mod who doesn't even speak English very well was allowed to mute the post without consulting anyone else on it's content when we've been posting in there (invited) for months without issue, yet the non-existent game selling an unregistered security token is never questioned??? lol
Come on man, you guys can do better than this. Why shit on our project as some illegal "gambling" site not only in your discord, but on our own post, while you allow non-existent games selling unregistered security tokens to thrive as "gaming" and "legal"?
It's funny that 3 of you now are here defending this practice too and acting like the fact that I'm calling out your bullshit of allowing illegal activity to thrive while claiming freeroll poker is "gambling" is hilarious.
Being muted was no big deal, I was just curious why it was muted, but I had a good idea why and I wanted to hear it and then address the bad reasoning for why.
What I addressed is the "gambling" fallacy. Mute all you want, I was invited to post in HGC so it was just a bit odd to get muted for "gambling" after being invited.
And then I got the exact response I expected "gambling". So I addressed that misconception that has hurt our community for 5 years. That misguided reasoning is what has kept Lucksacks from getting support on Steem and Hive since we started in 2017.
I hear it time and time again and I'm sick of it and people who have no idea what they're talking about in legal terms try to break down their red herrings to excuse the fact that they have no idea what they're talking about on the legal front all while allowing an admitted unregistered security to thrive in the same community.
It's ridiculous to me, so I expressed how ridiculous it all is. I'm sorry you don't like me pointing out how "your team" allows unregistered securities for games that don't exist to thrive in your "gaming" community while muting games that have existed for 5 years (long before Hive Gaming Community came along).
I could have easily explained everything and taught the rest of the Hive Gaming team about your project without you running off and acting like a child about this whole thing. I know that Lucksacks isn't gambling, but you decided to run off the deep end instead.
Honestly, I don't care anything about HGC or being a part of it. I'll say it again, I was invited to post there and it was a big mistake obviously.
Muting the post makes it appear that we did something wrong, when we didn't. Following up the mute by one of your mods publicly (not privately) communicating that our site was muted for "gambling" in "your team" Discord, then coming on our posts and saying it again warrants a response.
Why?
Because for 5 years that's the reason that's been given to us for why we can't get support from the ecosystem. "Gambling" is the go to catch phrase everyone uses and here we are again after 5 years with someone again associating "gambling" with our website and doing it repeatedly publicly.
I think it's rather odd for "your team" to come onto my post, where I'm explaining that we're not a "gambling" site, when I didn't even name your community in the post. But you all did and one of you wanted to argue the "gambling" angle again for no apparent reason.
Why is that?
Why is "your team" not concerned at all with the fact that your community allows non-existent games who sell illegal unregistered securities to thrive and post at will, yet your biggest concern of the day is some guy who never even mentioned your community making a post destroying the fake narrative that our site is a "gambling" site?
Very odd.
But please, continue not addressing any of these points and hurl ad hominem attacks at me. It really makes you look manly and sophisticated.
ok
I expect better of you @derangedvisions than this. :(
Out of everything I read here your comment saddens me more than anything else.
Glad I could be a disappointment to people other than my parents
Last time I checked .... all 52 cards in the deck ARE LEGAL.... so I'll be sticking to playing poker AT LUCKSACKS.COM..... very sad that people have been dumbed down so badly they can't wrap their heads around the fact that there is a difference between gambling and poker , and even when they admit the difference they still continue to mischarcterize poker as gambling.
The blind, knee-jerk dismissal of poker is so infantile, it's absurd.
@tipu curate 2
Upvoted 👌 (Mana: 0/26) Liquid rewards.
lucksacks allways going to be the best GAME here.
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i think you mean top-tier TUCK posting, good sir. Indeed!
Tuck and cuck are basically synonymous, used to be back in my day..
(lol, I jest.)
🤔
You're not wrong, exactly...
😉
To be fair projecting that US law applies everywhere is dumb as shit.
Fuck US law and the feds, incorporate and host offshore and that stupid howey test means fuck all. Incorporate and register in seychelles or some other lawless shithole and good god damn luck getting any sort of subpoena or government over-reach shit pushed through.
Also the comments section of this post is fucking LOL. Anyone in crypto whose gonna go off about unregistered securities is in the wrong fucking hood, most of us are in crypto to skirt federal over regulation and oversight... Should go without saying.. But Snitches get stitches where I'm from. :D
good laugh this shitpost and comments though.. Poker is a game-of-chance / gambling based form of entertainment. Doesn't matter if you're betting millions or fucking chips worth zero, you're wagering against the table and that by definition is "gambling".
Wager infers gambling. Anyone who says otherwise either doesn't have a strong understanding of english or is functionally retarded and / or splitting hairs.
ew, lame (to continue in the theme of this thread, ofc)
also, whatever.
Just says it likes it is.
Tuck should offshore this shit and open it up to actual money. It'd probably take off quite well. Hell do it anon and host with privex. ez fix.
Hard to grow a poker site when it's just for "funzies".. Few folks wanna waste hours of their week playing for peanuts, most if they are gonna sit down wanna chance to make decent cash else it's just not a great time / value proposition.
Are you the Ray Epps of crypto? 😉
You #FedPost so much publicly that it's concerning.
I'd block you to avoid ending up in some entrapment case after you're mysteriously not arrested, but your takes are so sophomoric that they're actually humurous to read ... in small doses.
lol I try and help you actually get some players, make an actual go out of your efforts... and you're all like "I'mma block ya"...
Cheers tuck, glad to see you're flourishing.
To be fair, no one did.
The point was made that the owner of the company making the game in question is based in the USA and the games token is likely a security by the US legal definition according to the owners statement. US law applies in the US and it applies to that token and the owner of the company.
Where others, who have nothing to do with that company or their token, reside has no legal bearing on anything at all and I'm not sure why you're projecting that someone said it does.
If the owner (who resides in the US) is eventually contacted by the SEC (which is highly unlikely since the game is vaporware so far and not really gaining any attention outside the few invested in the token) it will affect all holders of the token no matter where they reside.
The price of the token is the same all over the world and assuming otherwise is "dumb as shit". If it crashes because it's deemed a security by US law (where the issuer resides) then it crashes for everyone. I'm not sure what's so hard to grasp about this concept, but I will assume you get rekt a lot in crypto.
The point was made that the HGC muted a post for "gambling" regarding a freeroll poker site, while allowing posts about a likely unregistered security from a company based in the US (where the law applies) to thrive without being questioned. It just seems like an odd form of selective moderation.
The topic at hand is not unregistered securities, but the moderation of topics and how it is applied. Your understanding of what is being discussed is in the wrong fucking hood.
Tell me you are not a lawyer without telling me you are not a lawyer.
This is a correct statement when the word "wager" is applied in the proper context by someone who's not completely illiterate on the law.
Tell me you have a very small penis without telling me you have a very small penis.
Game tokens are not considered securities in the US. I could pull up the multiple references from the SEC from this but frankly you're juts gonna argue that the SEC is wrong or some other bullshit, because clearly you're smarter than the governing body of securities. :D
You're honestly going off on this shit it because you put a bunch of work into a poker site that no one uses and other projects are getting greater attention. (ok, a dozen people use lucksacks tops, seems a great use of your skills and time)
You wanna make dick jokes that's cool, I didn't even go there.. But yeah. Make your shit not a waste of fucking time and allow real money play and I'm sure it has a chance to give you the justification in making it that you desire. Or be a little bitch afraid of his govt and it's howey tests and be a toxic cunt to folks, I don't really give a fuck honestly.
You do you. I'm sure folks will line up to play on a site run by such a gem of a human being.
"I could" ... 🤣
I enjoy working on Lucksacks regardless if anyone shows up from Hive. It's not the only site I run, but it's the one I enjoy the most because it's where I get to hang out with some longtime online frens and play a game we all enjoy.
The fact that obvious scams continuously take advantage of the Hive ecosystem is irritating and the fact that so many long time users support the scams ... even more so.
Oh I'm so sorry. I thought we were having fun, considering you were the one who came onto my post hurling insults when I never asked you a Goddamn thing or for your fucking opinion. 😂
You're fed bait.
I'm just not a complete fucking moron like you spewing online. You're the kind of dumbass who gets arrested because your bravado online exceeds your mental capacity offline. And it's generally little dicks like you who after being arrested turn on everyone else to save their own ass. You fit the profile perfectly, talk a bunch of shit, get popped because of it and then drop dimes on everyone. Stay the fuck away from me fed bait!
lol then stfu and go away. No one asked you for your fucking opinion or wants it.😆
You run some shitty game making a few bucks and act like you're fighting the man!
lmao, gfto here with that noise. You're a little man with a disease and I don't want you near me cuz you're the type of guy that fucks shit up for everyone else with your big mouth.
It's a fucking poker site, not a social club for old ladies. Grow a pair one day and stfu with your fed talk on my posts you fucking cancer.