So how do we create a voluntary society given the fact that everyone is being indoctrinated with the belief that the current US System is not only Moral and Legitimate, it is the culmination of fixing history’s mistakes..... ???
You are viewing a single comment's thread from:
The answer to that question, is in the question. Spread the message of reality to undo the indoctrination. This only ends as more and more individuals wake up to the nature of the religion they have bought into. The approach Adam is taking is not only morally illegitimate, but reinforces the false notion that change only comes through submission to violence-based political mechanisms such as Federal elections.
Live free. Spread the message. Yes, there is a risk. Some of us, god forbid, may end up in jail or dead. I hope not. But participation in the political circus will not protect anyone from this violence, or mitigate that risk, anymore than covering oneself with paper can stop an attacking lion.
That’s the morality you’ve chosen. Neither Participation or Open Acrive Rebellion are moral or legitimate. I have to say that you’re consistent. It wasn’t long ago that I believed the Right of Conquest was a legitimate way to claim a country and by that virtue insure the title to my home and limited protections from squatters - so creating what we want... using the current systems own rules to do so isn’t so alien to my mind.
Not at all. That's the reality of life itself. Individual self-ownership is a biological and metaphysical reality. It is the basis for any and all Voluntaryist conceptions of property.
Thank you.
There was a once a time when involuntary servitude resulting from breach of contract combined with an inability to make the victim of the breach whole was a moral and legitimate reality . Where do you stand on that aspect of what I’ve heard called true libertarianism? Also for crimes of theft as well.
If an individual signs such contract voluntarily, it would be binding. That thing is, no sane individual would sign such a contract unless under duress/threat of violence, in which case the contract would not have been voluntarily agreed to. It’s a self-nullifying argument/problem in a sense.
Could you point me to an example of any individual signing said type of contract, who was not under duress, violation, or threat thereof.
Secondly, this is the state we find ourselves in now, in the current paradigm. It is a problem of the state and initiation of force, and not Voluntaryism.
EDIT: I’d also add that while one can sign away the rights to property (an extension of ISO), one can never really sign away their own self-ownership, as it is a natural reality which cannot be transferred. Contracts are legitimate when two or more self-owners are party to them voluntarily. Once self-ownership is signed away, the contract becomes illegitmate, as there would only be one self-owner party to the contract if the condition you reference were executed, thus resulting in a contract agreed to by only one self-owner (i.e. it would not be a “contract” anymore at all, but a tyrannical command on paper).
The answer is right there in the question. It’s not a voluntaryist position.
I’ve got no examples of people signing contracts cotrolling breach being involuntary servitude, as a results of breach and bankruptcy specifically, but history shows it was an accepted result by society without being written in.
I’ve also watched a recent libertarian video spelling out that it is a possible result of private arbitration in the case of crimes such as theft or damages without an ability to pay.
But this brings me to my point. That the only natural law is the law of the jungle. Kill or be killed. Everything else we do contrary to that law is a choice. A choice to follow a personal code to respect other people’s lives, property and treasure or not as a choice to be civilized. The level of respect we each choose is relative. Example: we choose to communicate in English yet English has no codified rules of grammar. Some of us choose the correct grammar because our learned books tell us to. Others don’t care and play with creating new grammar. And You just pointed it out that slavery could still occur in a libertarian society. Morality is Relative.
The books that will govern libertarian society must morally decline all forms of slavery; self imposed or not.
That’s right. And we can choose to follow those norms which objectively minimize potential violent conflict, or those which exacerbate it. The norm which is universalizable, and capable of bringing about minimized violent conflict is that which is based on individual self-ownership. This is objectively true. If every individual may claim “special rights” to “become king” we are left with high potentialized violent conflict. When a property norm is agreed upon, is based on reality, and is universalizable, that property norm is no longer “relative” as long as the value position of the equation is peace.
No, I didn’t, and no, it’s not. Not if you hold the minimization of violent conflict as a value. You are also engaging in a performative contradiction by asserting in absolute terms that morality is relative.
Voluntaryism does not condone or allow for the type of slavery you have described as there must be two parties to any contract, and once someone “signs away” their self-ownership, there is no longer a second party to the contract. You might consider finding some more accurate sources on what constitutes libertarian property norms.
In the beginning of your previous response you said a voluntary contract is binding... admittedly you went on to clarify that it’s not legitimate to sign away ownership of yourself. So I stand corrected on what you meant. But there are “libertarians” who would disagree with you, because history shows poor people signing themselves as indentured servants; however, I like your way of thinking.
Consider the situations of poor people who have no material means of making another person whole in the event they are found at fault for damages to another person. History shows (especially in India) those poor people being taken into involuntary servitude as a ‘just’ result. What is to prevent that from happening again? Some people believe that it is a ‘just’ result. (Not you or me)....
What would be a good text that discusses prosecution of criminals in a libertarian society?