Dear Hiveans,
As Putin's war is raging unabated, I'd like to apply Classical Liberalism to the Ukrainian question. Ludwig von Mises (wiki) is one of the most important representatives of Classical Liberalism as well as of the Austrian School of Economics. He even wrote a book with the title "Liberalism" (wiki).
In that book, he explicitly writes:
The right of self-determination in regard to the question of membership in a state thus means: whenever the inhabitants of a particular territory, whether it be a single village, a whole district, or a series of adjacent districts, make it known, by a freely conducted plebiscite, that they no longer wish to remain united to the state to which they belong at the time, but wish either to form an independent state or to attach themselves to some other state, their wishes are to be respected and complied with. This is the only feasible and effective way of preventing revolutions and civil and international wars. (Liberalism, p. 109)
Further quotes of Mises on secession you can find here.
- Thus, no matter what anybody thinks about whether Ukrainians being a separate nation/ethnicity / people, they have clearly proven over the last weeks that they wish to stay an independent state.
- Mises' statement is spot-on, in that it recognizes that if the wishes of the inhabitants are not respected, war is the inevitable outcome.
- There is no reason whatsoever for Russia to invade Ukraine,
- neither the alleged threat that Ukraine/NATO poses to Russia. The USA/NATO could have deployed nukes anytime in Poland without Russia having a chance to prevent that. The USA did not do that in order to not provoke Russia. Russia can and will never be 100% secure from foreign aggression. Putin's war has no chance of changing that.
- nor the alleged biolabs. Biological warfare is actually waged by China that either by malice aforethought or by gross negligence brought Covid-19 to the world. Russia didn't invade China though. Plus, the place of production is not that relevant. Thus, Putin's war is just a form of neo-Imperialism.
If we take Mises' quote seriously, we need to accept secessionist movements around the world - this in order to prevent revolutions and (civil) wars. That applies to each and every region/locality within Russia (among others Bashkortostan (wiki), Chechnya (wiki), Dagestan, Karelia, Sakha; great map by National Geographic), but furthermore to Kosovo (and regions within Kosovo), Catalonia, Kurdistan, Scotland, etc.
It does not matter if and how much the government of a secessionist, new-formed country is inept, non-functional or rapacious. Neighbouring countries do need to accept that country's autonomy. This is the conditio sine que non, the prerequisite of peace.
Have a great day, peace be with you, as-salāmu ʿalaykum
zuerich
Liebe Hiver,
Da Putins Krieg unvermindert wütet, möchte ich den Klassischen Liberalismus auf die ukrainische Frage anwenden. Ludwig von Mises (wiki) ist einer der wichtigsten Vertreter des Klassischen Liberalismus und der Österreichischen Schule der Nationalökonomie. Er hat sogar ein Buch mit dem Titel "Liberalismus" geschrieben (wiki).
In diesem Buch schreibt er ausdrücklich (übersetzt aus dem Englischen):
Das Selbstbestimmungsrecht in der Frage der Zugehörigkeit zu einem Staat bedeutet also: Wann immer die Bewohner eines bestimmten Gebietes, sei es ein einzelnes Dorf, ein ganzer Bezirk oder eine Reihe aneinandergrenzender Bezirke, durch eine frei durchgeführte Volksabstimmung zu erkennen geben, dass sie nicht mehr mit dem Staat, dem sie gerade angehören, verbunden bleiben, sondern entweder einen unabhängigen Staat bilden oder sich einem anderen Staat anschließen wollen, ist ihrem Wunsch zu entsprechen. Nur so lassen sich Revolutionen, Bürgerkriege und internationale Kriege wirksam verhindern. (Liberalismus, S. 109)
Weitere Zitate von Mises zum Thema Sezession findet Ihr hier.
- Unabhängig davon, was irgendjemand darüber denkt, ob die Ukrainer eine eigene Nation/Ethnie/Volk sind, haben sie in den letzten Wochen eindeutig bewiesen, dass sie ein unabhängiger Staat bleiben wollen.
- Mises' Aussage ist insofern richtig, als dass sie erkennt, dass ein Krieg unvermeidlich ist, wenn die Wünsche der Einwohner nicht respektiert werden.
- Es gibt keine Rechtfertigung für Russland, in die Ukraine einzumarschieren,
- weder wegen der angeblichen Bedrohung, die die Ukraine/NATO für Russland darstellt. Die USA/NATO hätten jederzeit Atomwaffen in Polen stationieren können, ohne dass Russland eine Chance gehabt hätte, dies zu verhindern. Die USA haben das nicht getan, um Russland nicht zu provozieren. Russland kann und wird nie zu 100 % sicher vor ausländischen Angriffen sein. Putins Krieg hat keine Chance, das zu ändern.
- noch wegen der angeblichen Biolabore. Biologischer Krieg wird in Wirklichkeit von China geführt, das entweder vorsätzlich oder grob fahrlässig Covid-19 in die Welt gebracht hat. Russland hat China trotzdem nicht überfallen. Der Produktionsort von Biowaffen ist zudem nahezu irrelevant. Putins Krieg ist also keine Verteidigung, sondern eine Form des Neo-Imperialismus.
Wenn wir das Zitat von Mises ernst nehmen, müssen wir Sezessionsbewegungen auf der ganzen Welt akzeptieren - um Revolutionen und (Bürger-)Kriege zu verhindern. Das gilt für jede einzelne Region/Ortschaft innerhalb Russlands (u.a. Baschkortostan (wiki), Tschetschenien (wiki), Dagestan, Karelien, Sacha; tolle Karte dazu von National Geographic), aber auch für den Kosovo (und Regionen innerhalb des Kosovo), Katalonien, Kurdistan, Schottland, etc.
Es spielt keine Rolle, ob und wie sehr die Regierung eines abtrünnigen, neu gegründeten Landes unfähig, nicht funktionsfähig oder raffgierig ist. Dessen Nachbarländer müssen die Autonomie dieses Landes akzeptieren. Dies ist die conditio sine qua non, die Voraussetzung für Frieden.
Einen schönen Tag, Friede sei mit euch, as-salāmu ʿalaykum
zuerich
Queridos Hiveanos,
Como la guerra de Putin no cesa, me gustaría aplicar el Liberalismo Clásico a la cuestión ucraniana. Ludwig von Mises (wiki) es uno de los representantes más importantes del Liberalismo Clásico, así como de la Escuela Austriaca de Economía. Incluso escribió un libro con el título "Liberalismo" (wiki.
En ese libro, escribe explícitamente:
El derecho de autodeterminación en lo que respecta a la cuestión de la pertenencia a un Estado significa, por tanto, que siempre que los habitantes de un determinado territorio, ya sea un solo pueblo, un distrito entero o una serie de distritos adyacentes, hagan saber, mediante un plebiscito libremente realizado, que ya no desean seguir unidos al Estado al que pertenecen en ese momento, sino que desean formar un Estado independiente o adherirse a algún otro Estado, sus deseos deben ser respetados y cumplidos. Esta es la única manera factible y eficaz de evitar revoluciones y guerras civiles e internacionales. (Liberalismo, p. 109)
Puede encontrar más citas de Mises sobre la secesión aquí.
- Por lo tanto, independientemente de lo que se piense sobre si los ucranianos son una nación/etnia/pueblo separado, han demostrado claramente en las últimas semanas que desean seguir siendo un estado independiente.
- La afirmación de Mises es acertada, ya que reconoce que si no se respetan los deseos de los habitantes, la guerra es el resultado inevitable.
- No hay razón alguna para que Rusia invada Ucrania,
- ni la supuesta amenaza que supone Ucrania/OTAN para Rusia. Los EE.UU. y la OTAN podrían haber desplegado armas nucleares en cualquier momento en Polonia sin que Rusia tuviera la posibilidad de impedirlo. Los EE.UU. no lo hicieron para no provocar a Rusia. Rusia puede y nunca estará 100% segura de una agresión extranjera. La guerra de Putin no tiene ninguna posibilidad de cambiar eso.
- Ni los supuestos biolaboratorios. La guerra biológica es en realidad llevada a cabo por China que, ya sea con alevosía o por grave negligencia, trajo Covid-19 al mundo. Sin embargo, Rusia no invadió China. Por lo tanto, la guerra de Putin es sólo una forma de neoimperialismo.
Si nos tomamos en serio la cita de Mises, tenemos que aceptar los movimientos secesionistas en todo el mundo, para evitar revoluciones y guerras (civiles). Esto se aplica a todas y cada una de las regiones/localidades dentro de Rusia (entre otras, Bashkortostán (wiki), Chechenia (wiki), Daguestán, Carelia, Sajá; gran mapa de National Geographic), pero además a Kosovo (y regiones dentro de Kosovo), Cataluña, Kurdistán, Escocia, etc.
No importa si el gobierno de un país secesionista de nuevo cuño es inepto, no funciona o es rapaz, y lo es. Los países vecinos sí tienen que aceptar la autonomía de ese país. Este es el requisito previo para la paz.
Que tengas un buen día, la paz sea contigo, as-salāmu ʿalaykum
zuerich
While I enjoyed reading your latest post @zuerich, I would suggest this statement is not necessarily true. The referenced statement of von Mises does not appear to take into account human nature.
My point?
People must be prepared, as we are currently tragically witnessing in this invasion by Russia of Ukraine, to "live free or die." The Ukrainian people have demonstrated a remarkable cohesiveness and unity in their willingness to remain free.
History is full of examples of people, however, who were not prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice to achieve liberty and obtain their God given right to self-determination. And / or to preserve it ...
In recent history and from my personal interaction with a number of them here on our Hive blockchain, I would cite the Venezuelan people as an example. While understandably quite unhappy with their circumstances, they do not appear to be willing to rise up in sufficient numbers to change them ...
Yes, indeed. People increasingly seem to accept tyranny without much resistance. People got very comfortable in their lives - as long as there's enough food, drinks and a running television.
I am afraid that this unwillingness to resist evil will come to an end only, when there's scarcity of food - as hunger is the ultimate civilization ender. Let's hope food production and transport won't be too disrupted by this war. Because if that happens, we would probably see people rising up in droves.
Concerning Venezuela I don't know how much resistance there actually is, but I would have expected a lot more opposition.
Yes. Including here in my beloved America ... Corruption is an ancient and endless source of problems for a people / nation, but never have I seen it (or read about it being ...) anywhere close to what it is today.
A major "contributor?" China! The extent to which we have "shipped" our "children's legacy and prosperity" to that country, only to have it return on our own heads, is beyond my ability to adequately express. Especially given the insidious nature of it and how intentionally difficult it is to discern what is always essential to know - what is the Truth?
Indeed. More broadly stated, perhaps we can agree with how much this "feature" of our (yes, I am well aware of being afflicted with it ...) human nature is centered around our comfort. And our self-centered focus on maintaining it, deluded that as long as "I'm good!" then somehow we are not affected when that is obviously not the case with others ...
At the moment, I can think of no more compelling example of this than from the history of your native country ...
You're right, this reasoning is completely rational. Furthermore, Russia, if they are so concerned about Ukraine joining NATO should have found another way to prevent it without war. But at the end of the day Russia is not the only country at fault, the other countries (Ukraine & NATO) refused to cooperate or come to a compromise.
Furthermore @zuerich, why didn't you say anything about the parts of Ukraine that wants to secede?
Sorry, but this is a bit like saying "the 300 kilogram, mouth-breathing rapist who hasn't bathed in three weeks is not the only one who is not to blame. The girl who refused to have sex with him when he demanded it should have come to some form of compromise to prevent hostility."
The notion that Russia (for example) is entitled to a say in any nation's foreign policy other than their own is an act of imperialism by its utterance. No one has a say in Ukraine's NATO bid except Ukraine and NATO, and Russia is doing a fine job of proving why Ukraine wanted to exercise its fully inalienable right to enter into an alliance.
And should Russia say "but that alliance is aimed specifically at us and we felt threatened," the barbarism in Bucha is there to show the world "damned right it is aimed at you, and this barbarism is why such an alliance exists! Your feelings are irrelevant!"
Imagine that another country, let's say China or the US, spends decades denying that your country has a right to exist, while demanding you submit to their demands. They then sliced off pieces of your territory claiming "this was ours originally anyway." They then came into your country and started slaughtering your civilians because they "felt threatened" that you were seeking alliance with one of their rivals in response to this series of actions.
See the issue?
I don't see a need for a compromise. If Russia wants regions in the Donbass to secede, they need to give the same right to all their minorities all over Russia. Russia wants the right to secession only for Crimea and Donbass, and probably for Catalonia, but they don't want to give that right to the minorities within Russia or to Kosovo. Putin and his bootlickers are extreme hypocrites.
But yes, of course, if for example in the Donetsk Oblast there's a plebiscite with a majority for secession, that should be accepted.
You're right, Russia is only interested in those secessions for their personal interests, really hypocritical. And yeah, all those who wants to secede should be free to after a plebiscite.
As for compromises, don't you think Russia is right to say NATO shouldn't set up bases so close to their borders? And don't you think the NATO and Ukraine are supposed to have seen reasons with Russia and compromise since Ukraine joining NATO is not so important?
No, I don't think Russia should have a say about NATO. Countries in Eastern Europe have suffered over at least 40 years under the Soviet / Russian occupation. I find it very understandable that these countries now look for foreign support, so that such occupation and oppression never happens again. Russia is incapable of defending itself (due to geographic and demographic reasons). They should accept that as a fact and consequently try to trade with their neighbours on friendly terms, instead of invading them.
I don't understand the last question. I think this disaster could have been prevented if
" "I find it very understandable that these countries now look for foreign support, so that such occupation and oppression never happens again."
👍
Certainly what the Ukrainian people suffered at the hands of Stalin and his Bolshevik cronies lies behind the strength and moral clarity with which they are now prepared to lay down their lives, rather than go back ...
I don't think Russia should have a say on NATO either, I was just saying even without a say NATO could at least understand that Russia their coming to Russia's borders is something Russia is right to be unhappy about and as a result NATO should have made a compromise since accepting Ukraine is not that important.
When you say those Eastern countries have suffered Russian occupation what do you really mean?
I agree Russia's relationship with their neighbours is supposed to be a friendly one, it should be hard for their neighbours to look elsewhere for friendship. And yes, keeping their nukes and joining NATO really quick would have prevented the war like you said.
Und mein Bayern nicht auf der Liste vergessen! (nicht ganz ernst gemeint)
Aber ja, stimme dir zu.
Die Berliner würden zeter und mordio schreien - und wahrscheinlich nach Bayern einwandern wollen!
Ich habe tatsächlich überlegt, Bayern aufzuführen, aber ich schätze für eine bayerische Unabhängigkeit gibt es (leider) keine Mehrheit 😉
Na dann soll der Rest von Deutschland halt zu Bayern gehören:)) !LOL
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Mediocrates
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This sounds easy to accept on paper. It's far more difficult in reality. If a single city block decides "we no longer wish to be part of our city, or of our nation," is this "self-determination," or is it an insurrection or a riot? I'm not speaking hypothetically. It happened in the US Northwest in 2020 and it was called the "Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone."
Let's make it more prickly. If you live in country A, on the border of country B, and wave upon wave of immigrants from country B move in and become the majority, then say "we choose to join country B," is this an act of self-determination, or is it an imposition upon the right of self-determination of the original inhabitants (who now find themselves surrounded and in effect conquered by a foreign power)?
In a laughably ironic twist, Putin's early justification for the war was exactly this. His pretense was to "preserve the right to self-determination" of two supposedly "separatist" areas (Donetsk and Lugansk) where this is precisely what happened (and let's not forget Crimea, where he already got away with the same tactic). It's also how the US annexed Texas, how China is legitimizing their conquest of Tibet... Hell, if we go far enough back into antiquity it's basically how every national or tribal expansion in Human history happened.
The generally accepted application in the world today (though not without exception, and even if applied without exception it would still be imperfect) is that the right to National Self-Determination applies to groups that have a defined cultural, ethnic and (in most cases) linguistic identity, with a sustainable local economy and defined geographic borders. This too presents difficulties as the defining criteria are difficult to quantify. Also, any Tibetan, Cherokee, Uighur, Scot, Navajo, or Papuan (among myriad others) will tell you that this principle is frequently overlooked as well.
The question, then, is "when is one group's right to delf-determination an existential infringement upon another's?"
On a tongue-in-cheek note, I'll say "for starters, when it involves bombing the hell out of civilian populations, I'm pretty sure that's an infringement."
Yes! World peace.. it need to happen. If anyone wants to be independent and considered their own people, then they should be allowed to do it.
And what's about Lugansk and Donetsk, which decided not to be part of Ukraine 'by a freely conducted plebiscite'? And Crimea? Does the plebiscite not count for them?
I think there is a whole half missing in your interpretation.
On the other side, I think the idea that Russia would like to absorb Ukraine is quite unrealistic.
The idea that they can is unrealistic. The idea that they want to, is rather openly stated by their own state-owned media who repeatedly deny that there is such a thing as a Ukrainian national identity. Their own state owned publications refer to it as "Little Russia (Malorossiya)" or "New Russia (Novorossiya)."
Also, there never was a freely conducted plebiscite in any of those three regions. In Crimea, "anti government protesters" who were later identified as Russian troops suddenly appeared, demanded a referendum, carried the votes away to be counted in Russia, and announced "Crimea has decided to be part of Russia" before rolling tanks into Crimea and deporting huge swaths of the population to Siberia.
In Donetsk and Lugansk, the same first step occurred (Russian soldiers masquerading as protesters) though the Ukrainian military got in before a farce of a referendum was able to be held, and EVERY Ukrainian who managed to escape, without a single exception, has told of the brutality inflicted by the Russian Army there. My neighbor, for instance, was a 5th grade teacher in Lugansk and was teaching a class the day the Russian Army seized her campus. She told of how she spent four days being continually raped by Russian troops as the girls in her class, tied to their desks by the entrails of their male classmates (which were ripped from them while they were still alive), were forced to watch. She describes, in sickening detail, how the soldiers would casually discuss which of the girls they would replace her with after she starved to death. It was not until the Ukrainian military pushed forward and recovered part of the province that she was finally rescued, but by then most of her students were dead of thirst or starvation. The Russian troops mined the school on their way out and not many of the teachers or students who survived the ordeal, survived the escape process. Russia, predictably, insisted it had been the Ukrainian military that did this.
No one believed them, until now, when the world is seeing Russian troops doing the same thing to the rest of Ukraine. My point is that it buggers credulity to claim the occupants of Donetsk and Lugansk freely chose that, and it further buggers credulity to think they STILL ARE fighting for it after 8 years. Now, if you took a poll TODAY in Donbas, well yes you'd find massive support for joining Russia, because all evidence points to the fact that most of the Ukrainian inhabitants have either escaped to Ukraine or been deported to Siberia and that the current inhabitants there are all Russians.
That is exactly why I wrote 'unrealistic'.
War is cruel; no matter which side you are on, there are always loads of stories of violence and rape. Unfortunately this is deeply embedded, and a terryfing mechanism by which one or the other party underline their 'superiority'.
You make some fair points.
As a US combat veteran I am aware that war is cruel and I won't pretend the US has "only ever fought defensive wars." But I note some distinctions and they seem far from semantic.
When we invaded Iraq, we had an entire MOS (if you're not familiar with US military shorthand it stands for "Military Occupational Specialty" and it basically means "job in the military") whose primary duty includes policing our own ranks and prosecuting our own troops for any perceived violation of international law, especially war crimes. I know this because it was my MOS.
Now I'm not going to blow smoke up anyone's @$$ by saying "we had the easiest job ever because our soldiers are such paragons of virtue that no such crimes were ever committed." What I am going to say is "we looked for them actively and when we found them, we punished them, harshly." As a result, there were FAR fewer of them because soldiers knew there was someone right there in their own Army watching. Crimes get less frequent when they have to be done right under the noses of the cops.
The RosFed, in contrast, is using the opportunities for plunder and rape as a bonus incentive when rallying troops (a video of a recruit saying 'I volunteered because it means an all-you-can-fuck buffet of Ukrainian pussy' was going viral until Western censors took it down for offending their sensitive ears), while ordering slaughters of civilians (orders which come from the top and go all the way down to the grunts), while punishing anyone who reports them.
Also, all signs indicate that the majority of the Russian population is well aware of this and they don't care because of the carefully cultivated perception of Ukrainians as 'less than Human' in Russian literature and contemporary media culture.
All-in-all, the cruelty of this war has been pretty one-sided.
There has not been any freely conducted plebiscite, neither in Luhansk nor in Donetsk nor Crimea. If such a plebiscite would be held (and the result confirmed by an international commission, as we know about the manipulation of Russian elections), and if a majority would be for secession, then that should be accepted, of course.
As I wrote in my post that rule applies to each and every region/locality. Thus, no half is missing.
Yes and no, Russia would sure like to absorb Ukraine, but it is utterly incapable of doing so.
The plebicites in Crime, Lugansk and Donetsk were a reaction to Ukraine's changing political landscape. Areas with a 'russian' majority feeled threatened by the country's move towards a anti-russian position, so they wanted 'out'.
Shall this freedom depend on the plebiscite being recognized by institutions that are not local, and not friendly?
It seems you have never been to Ukraine. I live in Kharkiv and when you say "areas with a Russian majority" I say "oh, do you mean the entire Eastern half of the country?" Everyone I know in this city is either a second or third generation descendant of Russians and I have not found one who "feels threatened" by the country's moves. If anything, they have been pushing Kyiv to be more solidly pro-Western. because they know what they can expect under Russian rule. There is no one in Ukraine who hates Russia more than those who came from there, because they know what they can expect under Russian rule.
The narrative that "ethnic Russians are persecuted" also falls flat. Ethnic Russians are the majority in this entire Oblast (it means roughly the same as Province), including in the government. Claiming they are persecuted here would be roughly the same as saying "Kenya is persecuting black people."
I'm not sure what your source is (there's a hell of a lot of misinformation, disinformation and outright garbage flying around in the media and has been since 2014) but let me be plain that the "independent plebiscite" is 125% a Russian fabrication.
So neither Lugansk nor Donetsk ever wanted to be independent from Ukraine?
"Ever" and "Never" are words I don't use lightly because by their very nature they are asking to be refuted. What I can say is "there was NEVER (yeah, I used it there) a valid referendum by the population, seeking independence. The Russian military entered, roused some local sympathizers and started killing people. All political discourse came later.
More simply, "if they did, they never said so, they never formalized it and they never gave Ukrainians who actually wanted to stay Ukrainian, a chance to leave."
Now, I'm not going to pretend I've gone door to door and polled the entire population of those regions. Even living in Ukraine for the past year (and hoping to go back to continue living there but I digress), I have only actually been in three cities (Kharkiv, Kyiv and Lviv) and one of them (Lviv) was nothing but a stop on the way to Warsaw. What I will say is there are plenty of people in Kharkiv (my city of residence) who fled Donbas and who have family in Donbas, and the narrative I'm putting forth is formed from talking to them. I have not yet met one who tells the story any differently.
Good job on presenting your opinion.
Hm, gab es nicht mal Volksabstimmungen im Dombass und der Krim, wonach sich diese ostukrainischen Gebiete von der Ukraine lossagen wollten? Ist aber nie berücksichtigt worden. Wer an der Macht ist, kann beliebig bestimmen, ob eine Volksabstimmung legitim ist oder nicht. Was bringt aber dann dieses Instrument?
"Hm, gab es nicht mal Volksabstimmungen im Dombass und der Krim, wonach sich diese ostukrainischen Gebiete von der Ukraine lossagen wollten? Ist aber nie berücksichtigt worden."
Auch mein Post ist eher normativ ausgerichtet, indem ich einen Idealzustand skizzieren. Wie wir das Sezessionsrecht praktikabel gestalten liegt an uns. Dazu müssen wir als Gesellschaft Ideen entwickeln und testweise umsetzen. In England wurde das beispielhaft umgesetzt, hinsichtlich Brexit und Schottland. Wenn z.B. Spanien das hinsichtlich Katalonien nicht tut, könnten andere EU-Länder den Druck erhöhen. Als Individuum kann man solche Länder boykottieren. Hinsichtlich Russland ist das alles eh zu spät. Dieses Land wird jahrzehntelang dahinsiechen.
Thats some really good points man. Good thinking. Peace, a like, and a follow. Cheers.
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