Community leaders + users, I need your opinion on what you want ! (also some news on rc delegations)

in #communities8 months ago (edited)

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Hello !

I have been silent for a bit and we skipped the last dev meeting because we didn't have a lot of points to cover, so I'm wrirting a small post to talk about what's going on with my work and to ask you some questions about the future

Direct rc delegations

The code has been finished and put in waiting for review about a month and a half ago, but the rest of the core team (led by @blocktrades) was fully focused on HAF so there was no bandwidth to perform a review, recently some of that bandwidth has been freed so I got a bunch of reviews, so far it's looking pretty good, I am still implementing some of the changes requested but I'll soon file it for a second review after I've done my changes.

You can follow along some of the discussions here: https://gitlab.syncad.com/hive/hive/-/merge_requests/245

communities 2.0 + recurrent transfers in hivemind

Meanwhile I've spent quite a bit of time looking into communities, there's a learning curve especially in terms of the implementation details (python vs pgsql)

Recurrent transfer support in hivemind

It's quite important to enable some version of paid communities where you are only a member if your recurrent transfer is up, it will also generate a clean api for dapps to integrate recurrent transfers with (search for user, you instantly get a list of their successful recurrent payments, if they failed etc along with the block number in case you want to double check against the hived apis)

Communities v2, what features do you want most

I have played around with a bunch of things and I'd like to ask you guys both community leaders and community users what kind of features you would like to see first, not all features are equally hard but it would still be interesting to know what I should prioritize. Please write why you want it (aka what you would do with it and how it would allow you to increase engagement/viewership etc)

If you are looking for inspiration, there are a lot of ideas in this post by @jarvie : https://peakd.com/hive-102930/@jarvie/history-of-blockchain-communities-and-what-is-next

I'm going to throw a small non-exhautive list here:

  • New communities type where members can only post and comment or where guests can only comment while members post
    • also make the community type selectable where you can move from one one type to another
  • Mandatory beneficiaries (if you don't post with the good beneficiaries, the post is automatically muted)
  • Community human names instad of ids (very hard)
  • Classification of post types
  • Community themes
  • Recurrent transfers memberships (if you have not paid, you are not a member)
  • more ways to sort communities
  • Membership request form (some form where members can ask to join and admins/mods can approve)
  • ?? You tell me :)
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The subscription & invite only type communities in the end can’t be just about allowing posting & commenting. It’s critical that it enables and disables readability. I imagine this is much more complex a problem to solve, but I’d hope using something like the current structure of the memo key enabling encrypted messaging in transfers could be adapted to this use. That is the one way to compete against Patreon, Substack, and every other internet paywall.

It is indeed very complex to do while staying decentralized. But it's also one of those areas where it would be fine to not be fully decentralized IMHO.
For the patreon etc use case we could have everyone post their pieces as encrypted using a public key and then a central server (or multiple that communicate) could then decrypt on a per-front end basis where they decrypt the text only to users who pay.

There are also other challenges with encryption key leaks etc which makes it quite hard. Secrecy and public ledgers were never really a good mix.

I think it's a problem that should be solved outside of hivemind. But I don't mind making a proof of concept to show some examples to users :)

Mandatory beneficiaries are good for funding communities.

I think the tools that can communities be businesses are always fine. But I also think maybe that's not necessary with some Smts / reward tokens at some point that is cheap and easy to use.

So maybe more on the end-user side to make them happier?

maybe some sorting inside the community, but that's front-end work or with a very good "Classification of post types". Besides the tags.

because tags on hive are more about reward earning So maybe "Topics"? :D

I could imagine a travel community could have a lot of countries and this could be all topics.

Impossible today to let them stick altogether. So that would be IMO really useful.

About the RC delegations, that's only the technical backbone right? So for use it needs again some work and is no "plug and play" for tribes for example?

For onboarding and so on?

About the RC delegations, that's only the technical backbone right? So for use it needs again some work and is no "plug and play" for tribes for example?

Well yes front ends will need to integrate with it I guess, but it's very simple to do so.

Good to know :)

RC pools to invest in and farm yield like defi would be cool

I am not sure if this is relevant or even useful, but I will throw it out here anyway.

What about a "below the fold" subscription where some teaser content is free and then hits a paywall. This could work for video and audio content too, so could be leveraged by @threespeak and the like.

Subscription pools where a subscription community collects its own pool (some percentage perhaps) of subscriber funds that get distributed to content in the community based on various usage metrics)

Subscriber pools, where a user can charge their account not just to access content, but also to add additional value to that content, like a tip that comes from their subscription fund. For example, where their subscription gets them a second-layer token that can be used in the community that is backed by the subscription itself and can only get gets distributed to the approved users and commentators etc.

Stats on individual users and the community in general. Metrics are great feedback for users and feed into gamification models.

Not really what you were asking for, but hey, it is something :)

What about a "below the fold" subscription where some teaser content is free and then hits a paywall. This could work for video and audio content too, so could be leveraged by @threespeak and the like.

That would be great but very hard to make paywalled content on hive in a decentralized way unfortunately

Subscription pools where a subscription community collects its own pool (some percentage perhaps) of subscriber funds that get distributed to content in the community based on various usage metrics)

That would be enabled via the beneficiaries / recurrent transfers integrations :) everyone could contribute to the same multisign wallet and then people could do whatever they want with it.

Subscriber pools, where a user can charge their account not just to access content, but also to add additional value to that content, like a tip that comes from their subscription fund. For example, where their subscription gets them a second-layer token that can be used in the community that is backed by the subscription itself and can only get gets distributed to the approved users and commentators etc.

I definitely see the idea, that would be interesting but faar out of reach of hivemind haha

Stats on individual users and the community in general. Metrics are great feedback for users and feed into gamification models.

I think this can already be done via hiveSql, front ends just need to implement it :)

To engage more in the community's, a way to add gamification to the pages would be great. Something like experience points for posting, and different levels people can earn, unique stickers that people can apply to posts, but only exists within that community. Things to make being a member of the community more fun...

Perhaps even custom user images / badges for members, and rewards within the community... To make engagement and being part of them more fun.

Also, being able to add ads to the pages would be good.

Hmmmmm that would be pretty cool indeed, but at the same time it sounds like a very custom implementation which should be per communities like what leofinance does with their token IMHO. Not a "staple" feature.

Ads definitely ! I think there are some issues that we may need to sort out with front ends.

There used to be, in the days of Steemit, a view counter on posts. One of the reasons why I stopped blogging was because I saw one day the amount of views I was getting drop massively, in spite of no decline in followers. The next day or the day after, the view counter disappeared entirely so I could no longer even see if my posts were being read.

In the age of internet censorship and shadow banning, I think that it is worth bringing back this view counter, so that people can see whether their words are even being observed by others, and if so, by how many.

The problem is that it's quite hard to gauge how often a post is red across multiple front ends, steemit did it because at the time there was basically only one front end. Now we have lots of readers on eccency, hive.blog, peakd, so if we were to display a page viewer feature, it would be per front end which wouldn't be very accurate.

We could have it at the api level where front ends could note whenever someone requests to read a page, but first it would easily be gamed and second sometimes posts are loaded even though they aren't red, some front ends load posts just to show the first 5 lines to incite people to read them.

I had no idea it was that complex, but I am surprised and appreciative of the fact I even got a meaningful response. I never really devoted much time to the question posed as I wasn't sure my reply would really get looked at. But, I will now have a proper think and perhaps come up with a better idea that is innovative and unseen elsewhere - and hopefully not quite so complicated or risky to implement.

No pressure :) it's okay to not have an idea in the moment.

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Peakd.com has good stats, if you don't use brave browser.

Actually, can you tell me what the benefit and/or problems would be with switching to brave? I have heard of it but still currently use chrome.

Peakd's stats don't work with brave shields up.
Brave blocks ads and pays you to look at their ads.
You can choose what scripts are allowed to load in the browser.
It blocks tracking cookies and javascript.
This all ads up to better privacy, and small amounts of BAT, their token.

Thanks. I think I will stick with chrome then. I tend not to trust things that say they're about protecting your privacy. I am sure most of the VPN's are just there to capture people's information while they are specifically doing the things they do not want others to see them doing. I have trust issues, with people at least. Lol. I appreciate the response though, and am using peaked now.

It's open source.
The guy that invented javascript created it.
You may be right.
We can be certain that chrome won't be keeping any secrets.

The way I see it, if I ever do anything truly valuable for the world, which I certainly intend to, someone will dig up all my skeletons and use them against me regardless of how well I tried to hide them. And as long as by the time that happens, I am the best version of myself I've ever been, then anyone who wants to judge me for my past rather than see my mistakes as the reason for me evolving in the right direction, can fuck off anyway.

Nothing is private on the interwebz.
I agree with you on the vpn's.

Thank you, I just had a look and the UI looks really good. I will likely start using that.

I assume the subscription model would involve encrypted content unless the user was an active member. If not, being able to encrypt content would be a nice feature.

I see, thanks :), see my comments to @bryan-imhoff for more thoughts on encryption.

Paid membership would easily allow me to move my business to Hive. I like that idea.

I think it could also lead to more influencers moving their communities here over patreon, and also increase use of hive/hbd as a currency. We need to make sure they know about this though.

A lot of people who earn money from their content off hive haven’t moved here yet because they’d have to start over from scratch but this would allow ways to move payment from usd to hive (or potentially btc to hive direct swap payments)

Yes this is kind of the whole idea, give people the tools to monetize their audience on hive, and benefit from the fast feeless transactions that hive offers :)

Community human names instad of ids (very hard)

Hmm, I couldn't find that feature request in the linked post. How would it help to have that? I imagine it would lead to name squatting and this brings huge problems with itself. The community name is human-friendly everywhere except in the URL, no? And if you post the URL somewhere, most places have a link preview so they will show the human-friendly community name.

more ways to sort communities

I know @jarvie was elaborating somewhere on this one. If I remember right, he wrote a post where he was saying how he wants a lot more metadata for each community. I searched but couldn't find that post now. Was able to just find this early one from him with some future thoughts on communities: https://peakd.com/communities/@jarvie/thoughts-about-communities

Hmm, I couldn't find that feature request in the linked post

Sorry some ideas are also coming from the comments or discussions with community members :)

Hmm, I couldn't find that feature request in the linked post. How would it help to have that? I imagine it would lead to name squatting and this brings huge problems with itself. The community name is human-friendly everywhere except in the URL, no? And if you post the URL somewhere, most places have a link preview so they will show the human-friendly community name.

It helps in terms of UX, the closest thing to communities is reddit and people talk a lot in terms of urls, I know I almost never browse manually to subreddits, I directly type like https://old.reddit.com/r/..... This also helps when you paste a link, you instantly know what community we are talking about instead of being like "ah yes community 849754 totally makes sense"

I agree link previews work but it's a bit of a hassle on the front ends to do it. And it doesn't work for everything like a tweet.

re: name squatting. This is where it gets hard, the feature itself is easy to implement, but then we need some mechanism in place to let people challenge ownership of a certain community name which needs to happen in a fair and decentralized way which is where the real challenge lies.

Mandatory beneficiaries and membership request form stuck out to me, but I think peakd already has the former?

Can we get convert hbd from savings?
I don't really see folks holding hive in savings, but maybe some would use that, too.

When I look at payouts the order is descending payouts, can we get that changed to chronological?

Invite friends/followers to communities would be nice.
Maybe a notification of being invited?
Opt in/out of notifications.

@sepracore's idea of encrypted content is a good one.
Maybe a whitelist of who can use their memo key to unlock the post.

You guys have done great, thanks.

Can we get convert hbd from savings?

While I see the point, I don't really think it's worth the effort to implement unless there is a significant request for it.

When I look at payouts the order is descending payouts, can we get that changed to chronological?

Hmm what do you mean ? Sounds like a front end thing

Invite friends/followers to communities would be nice.
Maybe a notification of being invited?
Opt in/out of notifications.

noted, thanks :)

In peakd's activities tab is one for payouts.
When these payouts present they present in descending payout order rather than chronologically.
So, I asked Asgartj and was told that it was set by the api and beyond their control.
It's not all that important, but when searching payouts it helps me to see them chronologically.

@asgarth I think the api options may have change since you last looked :) there are multiple sort options and "blog" is the one where it's sorted chronologically eg:

curl -d '{"id":2,"jsonrpc":"2.0","method":"bridge.get_account_posts","params":{"sort":"blog","account":"antisocialist","observer":"howo"}}' https://api.deathwing.me/

I don't think this is related to the blog. From my understanding the request is to allow a different sort on this call:

{"id":2,"jsonrpc":"2.0","method":"bridge.get_account_posts","params":{"sort":"payout","account":"howo","observer":"asgarth"}}

As you can see the results are sorted by descending payout. The request is to sort chronologically. And as far as I know it's not available.

Yes this is what I mean, there are other sorts available:

supported_sort_list = ['blog', 'feed', 'posts', 'comments', 'replies', 'payout']

and if you put the sort param as blog instead of payout you'll get the results chronologically, descending (new -> old)

No, this is not what he requested.

Blog page is here: https://peakd.com/@howo

Payout page is here: https://peakd.com/@howo/payout

He basically want the second page (with comments too and not just root posts) sorted chronologically.

Aaaah I see, sorry I didn't realize that sorting by "blog" didn't return the comments. I'll see if I can add a new payout sort going :)

This is more of a question that stems from listening to the meetings. You consistently speak of taking care of low hanging fruit (nothing wrong with that).

It makes me curious.

What large projects do you have in mind down the pipeline?

Rc delegations is one of the larger projects that I am working on. You could say that communities v2 is another one :)

I don't have a lot of bigger changes in mind for hived in the near future apart from rc delegation so most of my work will be on hivemind I think.

Fair enough. Thanks for the answer! I appreciate that you record the dev meetings.

Membership request form. I really wanted to be a member of Splinterlands community but i am still a guest although i participated in almost all contest each week except art contest.

There are no special privileges for being a member of the Splinterlands community, AFAIK.

Running my own very little community, I really miss the feature to hide posts that do not belong in the community, for all viewing the community channels. This may be against the free speech principle, but when communities get totally unrelated posts, this harms the idea of a 'topic' community.

Hmm you should still be able to do it afaik. The mute function is there for that assuming you are at least a mod

Need to test again, I'm even above a MOD, namely ADMIN :) But maybe I'm doing something wrong, I muted some users using the community account. When using my own account as admin, I likely MUTE for myself only. But maybe you know how this works, better than I do :)

Really awesome that you're looking into this! :D

Although for now all my attention is for RC delegations until I ship them with hf26 :)

wowHello, your publication seems very attractive to me

Notifications for community posts please, (On for weekly by default, but customisabe to daily and able to turn off) and especially for threads which have been voted or commented upon by user, but not directly to users comment (which gets notified anyway), with choice of instant or summary notification daily or weekly). This could hugely increase comment engagement. Please ask if you need clarification.
This could be done better still system wide, not just for community posts. i have already asked @dbuzz, @ecency and @peakd about this, but no response so far (except acknowledgement for consideration by @ecency).

Sat Nam
Atma